Trash Drops are Unnecessary, My Suggestion.

[Scryer]

Trash - What is trash and how can we best make use of the games loot tables?

While ideally, some trash is okay, a base piece of armor, maybe even an inferior piece of armor. but how much trash should a game have? Well, this observer can say for certain that minimizing trash is the best way to play a game. You don't want to see so much loot on the ground that you get sick at it's sight, and you don't want to be starved for loot either.

How do we deal with these conflicting ideals? Here's my suggestion.

- All loot as something useful at one time or another.

Instead of making trash loot that is always worthless to the player, only add loot that will be worthwhile to the player at one time or another.

I don't mean to say that the player should be picking up every piece of gear or item that drops, however, trash should be useful for the player at one time or another, in that, if a player chooses not to pick up an item, he will not be penalized later for it.

Trash drops, like a coat, a hat, and a sword, that drop off a monster, that the player may never use, are pointless to drop all the time, you do not need to drop all that, all the time, killing something does not always have to yield loot drops. It shouldn't, because always dropping loot creates more and more trash then the player will ever be able to carry.

So what should be done?

- Every Normal monster should not always drop loot.

- Unnecessary trash needs to go - STOP dropping loot no one will ever use, either to sell or to pick up.

- Make use of all trash for different cases - Did inferior plate pants drop? Allow a profession to use those plates as a crafting material. Either to deconstruct the pants for raw materials, or to use the inferior pants directly to create a better item.

- Replace trash with different game-play mechanics - like Scrolls or Potions that help you in combat.

- Everything should have a chance to drop good loot that could be used by anyone at anytime given the players circumstance.

Trash is an unnecessary part of the ARPG genre and should be eliminated as much as possible.

Read more about my ideas on health orb mechanics here.

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75

[Renevent]

It's impossible to make all loot useful at some point...the entire item system is random. Trash in a random system is simply inevitable.

With that said, medierra had already said they are significantly reducing the amount of trash monsters drop, and this is also on the features page.

[Chameleon]

Trash drops might be a necessity in GD if we have a "disassemble" feature where we can turn any/all items into the oh so sought after Iron Bars, Salt or some other item needed to make other things.

If we can disassemble on the run then trash drops wont be a problem at all.:D

[Scryer]

Well, my suggestion is more-so to apply the meaning of trash drops in previous iterations of the ARPG genre, and re-apply it's meaning in a more modern context.

Trash that is always worthless should never drop or be as close to never dropping - that is the modern context.

If trash is sometimes worthwhile then it is no longer useless or worthless to drop.

[Renevent]

Trash is never "worthless" anyways...everything in Titan Quest had monetary value. I think Crate is on the right track...reducing the amount of "trash" is a good idea...but I am not sure how they would even apply what you are suggesting...or really even what it actually means.

[Malpheas]

He isn't saying a whole lot, just something that could be contexted into something else at some other point, somewhere.

- Every Normal monster should not always drop loot.

This I disagree with, well at least the implication that normal monsters should not have the chance to drop something. In TQ, for example, monsters that did not drop items because they weren't carrying them, dropped monster relics; which is contrary to Diablo II LOD where "stinging nats" could drop unique swords.

[Scryer]

I think it is okay for a monster that can not carry a sword, still have the ability to drop one.

I'm simply suggesting in that quote, that normal monsters should have a rare chance of dropping anything.

Too much clutter and the game gets mundane pretty quick, when something is dropped however it should always be worth while to the player.

[Malpheas]

Wait, wait... drop anything... I'm confused. In TQ, the WYSIWYG method worked well, it made dropping items kind of interesting based on what they used.

I agree with a monster being able to drop something even though not carrying as well, but within reason - no fleas dropping arquebuseses.

Monsters should drop something that should always be of use to a player, and make that something material AND stackable (lol?).

[ASYLUM101]

I think it is okay for a monster that can not carry a sword, still have the ability to drop one.

Huh? How is that ok? A wolf should not be able to drop any kind of weapon or armor, except for maybe jewelry or a collar.(dunno, i guess you could put a ring on a dog's paw or something...*shrug*) And the whole, oh maybe he ate that weapon doesn't make sense to me. He'd have to be a BIG damn wolf for that to happen, but I don't think Fenrir is gonna be in this game.

Like Maplh said, WYSIWYG was an EXCEPTIONAL drop method. My favorite by far, because you will always know WHO to farm for what item. Rather than, oh, I'm just gonna run through from here to here and kill everything hoping I'll get this great item. Unlike boss farming, monster farming like this works pretty well.

[Malpheas]

Ironically... I kind of agree with with monsters having the ability of dropping certain items based on what they are despite them not using them. Like materials.

There was this one creature in Marduk's Temple in TQ that carried polearms and dropped them, even though it did not use them. Like a jelly or a slime of some sort. It was very cool that it did. Kind of like a clean up from all the other dead adventurers.

I think this should be limited to stuff it has the ability to use, and materials. Nothing else. Loot tables notwithstanding.

Cheers,

Malph

[Renevent]

I absolutely love the drop system in TQ...not only did it make sense...but it was exciting to see a monster holding some electrified battle axe and know once you slaughtered him, that item was yours.

[Scryer]

I like to kill things, and so should we all, if we limit what can be dropped, it causes the player to look for specific foes to vanquish, is this truly a desired game-play mechanic?

Maybe it is, however what would be the cost of allowing all enemies drop most or any possible loot?

Being able to kill anything without being forced to farm anything specific. It reminds me of boss runs, kill Mephisto X times until you get a great item, kill the human rebel X times just because he only drops this one item.

So it does sound a little monotonous to simply slay the same thing over and over to try and farm one item that the enemy drops. Having many enemies with many different types of abilities to fight against helps alleviate some of that monotony, and that's part of what Diablo did. Aside from boss runs.

[Vox Nihili]

Regardless of monsters drop what they carry or not, I think it's a safe assumption that they could phase out true trash drops (e.g. TQ's greys) entirely, regular (white) drops after a few levels, and magic (yellow) drops further down the line.

Even if there is some sort of deconstruction mechanic, you might as well leave out the garbage drops and just drop the deconstructed components instead. That whole system seems to leads to lots of things that have an extremely low ratio of fun-created to development time required.

[ASYLUM101]

Ironically... I kind of agree with with monsters having the ability of dropping certain items based on what they are despite them not using them. Like materials.

There was this one creature in Marduk's Temple in TQ that carried polearms and dropped them, even though it did not use them. Like a jelly or a slime of some sort. It was very cool that it did. Kind of like a clean up from all the other dead adventurers.


Ok, materials, yeah, I agree on that. That's a completely different story though.

And about the jellies, yeah I can see that too. Again, not completely the same thing lol. A jelly having a sword or something inside of it is not uncommon, I've seen old animations and stuff from baldurs gate with that concept, you could even see the critters moving inside some of the jellies. But like you said, nats that can drop a sword?... that's just silly.

And Scryer, I'm not even sure what you're arguing for anymore. Your points are scattered and don't say much at all. You're saying you like to kill things, but by limiting what a creature drops it limits to how many foes you can kill? Did you even play titan quest? If you did, you'd know that's not true, because farming for a stonebinder's item for example becomes a gorgon genocide, meaning you'd have to kill hundreds of gorgons, automatai and undead to get that pair of stonebinders cuffs.

But that whole boss farming argument... doesn't do your argument any good. You're just generalizing the whole farming aspect, not just this one part of it.

[Malpheas]

Regardless of monsters drop what they carry or not, I think it's a safe assumption that they could phase out true trash drops (e.g. TQ's greys) entirely, regular (white) drops after a few levels, and magic (yellow) drops further down the line.

Even if there is some sort of deconstruction mechanic, you might as well leave out the garbage drops and just drop the deconstructed components instead. That whole system seems to leads to lots of things that have an extremely low ratio of fun-created to development time required.

+1 ; cookie ; brownie... perhaps except for phasing out "white" and "yellow" drops.

Although, if this crafting system gets out of hand in a way I hope will happen, I'm looking forwards to grinding for mats. HELL YES. I mean... it will make a playthrough exciting, especially for some of the rare material drops.

Cheers,

Malph

[medierra]

Definitely an interesting topic.

We've taken measures to greatly reduce the amount of trash loot in GD. However, I believe some degree of it is necessary to maintain the "lottery" feeling of killing enemies. To make the times when you get something great, there have to be a certain number of times that you get nothing or something not very desirable. If all of these less desirable items were useful enough that you wanted to always pick them up, it would just get overwhelming.

That said, we have also made some changes to drop a wider range of desirable items aside from just rare and unique items. To fulfill the needs of the crafting system, enemies can drop many different types of crafting materials. We also want to pace the loot a little better so that magical items are not completely eclipsed by frequent rare or unique drops. Having more significant steps between common base item stats will also help here.

We're keeping some of the WYSIWYG loot system but making it a little bit more flexible so that enemies can drop items other than what they're carrying. Generally I think we still want this to make some amount of sense. So a wisp probably will never drop a sword but a zombie might drop a sword even though it isn't using one... "why wouldn't it use a sword if had one?" - glad you asked! Because zombies are dumb... ;) and we think it makes the game a little more fun. It improves the lottery-aspect of getting items and removes some of the pressure of trying to balance item drops when only certain enemies can drop certain items. An even better example might be an archer that would always drop a bow (even if it was broken and disappeared) but could also drop other weapons. This alleviates the problem of melee players being shit out of luck while fighting through a stretch of area dominated by archer class enemies.

[Malpheas]

<snip>.. We're keeping some of the WYSIWYG loot system but making it a little bit more flexible so that enemies can drop items other than what they're carrying. Generally I think we still want this to make some amount of sense. So a wisp probably will never drop a sword but a zombie might drop a sword even though it isn't using one... "why wouldn't it use a sword if had one?" - glad you asked! Because zombies are dumb... ;) and we think it makes the game a little more fun. It improves the lottery-aspect of getting items and removes some of the pressure of trying to balance item drops when only certain enemies can drop certain items.


This is entirely what I was hoping for.

Cheers,

Malph

[Mines51]

Zombies not carrying swords? I'm disappointed. We need more sword wielding zombies in the world. Skeletons can do it, why not zombies?

[Malpheas]

Oh, it can! It's just too stupid to. It might, but it also might carry a stick, fwap with a branch.

[Mines51]

Skeleton's don't have a brain let alone muscles. Zombies at least have one, although it is rotting.

[heron]

My suggestion for those who find picking up every loot tedious.

Make all trash mobs drop gold 90% of the time.
8% items and 2% gems (socketable).

mini bosses drop lots of cracked gems.
big bosses drop full gems, rare items, gold, etc.

This way less trash loot to gather and more fighting.
Gold will be spent in outpost to buy item upgrades and enchantments, etc.

[medierra]

Zombies not carrying swords? I'm disappointed. We need more sword wielding zombies in the world. Skeletons can do it, why not zombies?

WHOA! whoa... hey lets not jump to conclusions here. Of course zombies can use swords. However, they can also carry swords they aren't using. You know, could be lodged in the back or something from previous combat. :p

[Mines51]

Awesome...exactly what i wanted. Sword-wielding zombies are a must in any game. Would be nice to see some visible effects of impaled zombies even it they don't drop the weapon they were impaled with.

[ASYLUM101]

WHOA! whoa... hey lets not jump to conclusions here. Of course zombies can use swords. However, they can also carry swords they aren't using. You know, could be lodged in the back or something from previous combat. :p

Ok, here's a question:

Will the zombie drop multiple weapons? Say we find the zombie wielding a sword, and we kill it. Will he drop said sword, as well as another sword, and maybe an axe? Also, what if he has a unique sword as well as a non unique sword? Will he equip the better of the two? (I'm really hoping for yes...)

[Scryer]

Well, I kind of see it like this my character has an inventory, and he could have any kind of item in said inventory.

So, if my character is a measure of any other enemy in the game, then they would also have an inventory and carry weapons within it that I would not be able to see.

That's a more "I can do this why can't they?' Scenario, but if it's good enough for a game like Diablo I feel it should be good enough for any game.

Though I could understand if there was a higher attempt for the game to put-forth realism into the RPG concept, but with magic and how the game works in general that's just not necessary.

[Renevent]

I think you are thinking about it a tad too hard...

[medierra]

Ok, here's a question:

Will the zombie drop multiple weapons? Say we find the zombie wielding a sword, and we kill it. Will he drop said sword, as well as another sword, and maybe an axe? Also, what if he has a unique sword as well as a non unique sword? Will he equip the better of the two? (I'm really hoping for yes...)

If the zombie is actually wielding a weapon, that weapon will drop. It might be a broken weapon, in which case it will vanish after dropping. There may also be a chance of generating miscellaneous items in addition to what is equipped, this could be zombie skin (although I have no idea why you'd want that), a potion, coins, another sword, a unique crossbow, some magic gloves, uber essence of uberness, whatever...

The system doesn't simulate the zombie having an inventory and being able to choose what to equip, although you can certainly imagine that it is doing that. :p Just be forewarned, zombies aren't known for their good judgment.

[Scryer]

I think it's a valid comparison. I'm not the developer, I've never created my own game, but still think it unnecessary to limit yourself as a designer. Especially if that limitation is not needed.

Though, like I said maybe there's a sort of "this is realism" way of looking at it in terms of the RPG part of the genre.

Though I do like that they have decided to allow certain creature types drop more then just what is seen, this is a big leap forward in the lottery effect.

[ASYLUM101]

Lol, ok then. Thanks for the clarification Medierra.

I hear zombie skin makes for one wicked barbecue!

[wizzleteat]

my thoughts on trash drops, and drops in general:

-i don't mind "trash" drops at all really, mainly because a lot of items i want are either really expensive or i have need to loot/sell to save up enough gold for other things. ie: the services other merchants in the town offer, inventory expansion, etc. POINT IS: i enjoy picking up every item and dealing with the time/"hassle" of selling it all and hording gold. the gold in TQ specifically has ALWAYS come in handy, and I've never had TOO much.

-in TQ specifically (again) i noticed that i would 90% of the time find, in a monster loot drop, better items than the merchants offered, RIGHT around the time that i had enough gold to purchase them in the first place. it was almost like clockwork, to the point where i felt like it was almost pointless past level 10 to even buy anything from merchants other than potions and services. (example: i try my best to save up 10,000 gold for an awesome helmet, only to find a slightly better helmet on a dead enemy right as i finally collect 9,500 gold)

-it was frustrating at times when i would lay waste to a ton of enemies, see all of them physically drop weapons/armor, but only SOME of those items were able to be picked up. gold and potions, sure, but how many times do you remember seeing a sword or a bow drop, and when you hit Z (alt? lol) it wouldn't highlight or allow you to grab it. :p

-my only other thought that hasn't really been posted here is that if drops are going to be modified, which im cool with, then i hope it doesn't shift things too much, or accelerate the players completion time at all. i enjoy long games, but short games are only fun if i felt like i really worked to finish it. TQ's pacing was pretty spot on for a linear ARPG, in my opinion. i'm sure this will be considered in the overall scheme of things anyway though.

good topic guys.

[Phuncz]

Trash drops aren't a problem if there is a good "loot" button. Torchlight has this for example: when you are near gold and useful items, smash the loot button and it will get the useful items. A good solution !

But there is also too much, like the Secret Cow Level in Diablo II. So much white/gray items (half of them potions), that most couldn't be rendered on screen at the same time because your screen was full of text labels for them. I like the idea of salvaging white items for a few types of materials for crafting or enchanting them to very good items (D2: runes + white = nice item) and it also allows low level players to trade sooner.

[Llama8]

Trash drops aren't a problem if there is a good "loot" button. Torchlight has this for example: when you are near gold and useful items, smash the loot button and it will get the useful items. A good solution !

Yup, having to click on individual items to pick them up gets tedious fast. If you could convert items to materials, I'd be happy to keep trash/low quality drops, since they're then not "useless" (since you can easily convert them into something useful).

[Scryer]

Once again, I should re-iterate on my main points in this topic.

Trash items are items that have no other purpose then to be picked up and sold. If there are items that have this function they should be rare and sell for a decent amount of gold. Every other item that are more common should have a different function that the player may want it for. The point of a loot drop is generally to foster 3 different feelings, accomplishment, the lottery effect, and necessity.

However, just because something is needed does not mean it should always drop. However, since crafting materials will be needed in this game I feel it is best to point this out now - dropping them from monsters should not create the effect of "I have to farm this at all times." If you always drop an item from only a beast then that item will be farmed and create a pseudo-monotonous atmosphere even if that item doesn't drop all the time. Imagine a player creating a game just to fight those beasts just to get that item, is that fun or required for a fun game, is it a behavior you want to create? Furthermore if an item always dropped from a particular monster at all times, this would create inflation, something that is hard to control in a game.


So once again, what is trash? Trash is an item that has no use to the player at any-time other then to sell. As I stated items with this function should be rare and feel like an accomplishment when acquiring as they will sell for a lot of gold.

Why then, should we let items drop from any creature no matter what they are? First of all, this is a great question, be secondly, it is necessary to look at the above 2 paragraphs and ask yourself whether farming any particular creature is necessary in this game and whether it's a behavior the developers want to foster. Playing a game should be fun, and killing everything in sight should also be fun, is it therefore not reasonable to apply global loot table to all creatures? How does applying a global loot table harm the game?

First, applying a global loot table is far superior to one that is completely predictable, this is because the player is more focused on the playing the game the way it should be intended and not farming a specific enemy in a monotonous way.

Second, to my knowledge Diablo 2 is still played by thousands, and not all of those are just botters. People who have been playing Diablo 2 have enjoyed a completely random loot table since it's earliest incarnation in Diablo 1. So, therefore, a random loot table has not harmed either of those behemoths. So I ask you to critically think about the true importance of a non-random loot table that is predictable? Is predictability inherently fun, or is it inherently un-fun to just farm the same creature just to get a single item for your crafting profession?

"Real trash" that players do not pick up are therefore, items that do not have any value to the player at that time. If the player had a profession and could deconstruct the material, or use the item for a craft, or simply use the item in battle, this would be much more fun for the player then simply seeing loads of sell-only trash. Sell-only trash should not exist except to function as an accomplishment for the player, something that is fun, like an item that sells for much more gold then normal, these should be really rare.

All other trash should not sell for as much, to keep the games monetary value high. By this post I am saying that all loot should be random to all enemies. This is my argument. Also as I said in the original post - normal monsters / enemies should have much less chance to drop loot, when they do it should be celebrated. Gold is okay to drop in small quantities to keep inflation down.

Once again I implore you to think critically - What use does the player get when he or she has to farm a specific creature for any particular item? Is that a fun behavior or consequence? And why has Diablo 2 gotten away with completely random loot for so long and so successfully? Is it then necessary to add specific loot to specific creatures in any ARPG?

I would like to point out to the reader that those thoughts are highly debatable, is it fun to re-create a game knowing you are just doing it to farm a specific creature, or is it more fun to simply play the game and kill everything and hope for the best?

[Phuncz]

Once again, I should re-iterate on my main points in this topic.
This is the how-many'th topic you had to explain yourself in wall-of-text style just to prove your point ? I don't mean this offensively but maybe people just don't agree with it and explaining it in enormous detail doesn't make people go "ahhh that's what he meant, then it's ok".

However, since crafting materials will be needed in this game
The game doesn't *need* crafting materials, the game needs to be balanced, fun and have replayability. A crappy game with crafting is still a crappy game. Crafting can always be added later.

Imagine a player creating a game just to fight those beasts just to get that item, is that fun or required for a fun game, is it a behavior you want to create?
That's what happens to EVERY (A)RPG game that has level-based/creature-based drops. It is what some players want to do.

So once again, what is trash? Trash is an item that has no use to the player at any-time other then to sell. As I stated items with this function should be rare and feel like an accomplishment when acquiring as they will sell for a lot of gold.
Trash was once the only thing a low level player had to use. You'd want that no useless items drop, so maybe they should put in a curve so that only "useful" items drop after a certain level ? Explain please why you would feel accomplishment with acquiring an item purely to sell ? Isn't that just like a quest reward or finding a gold chest ?

First, applying a global loot table is far superior to one that is completely predictable, this is because the player is more focused on the playing the game the way it should be intended and not farming a specific enemy in a monotonous way
People will always find ways to farm for items, it is just in our nature. Accept it, because you can't change people. You can annoy people by getting in their way and thus losing their intrest in a game because you seem to require everyone to play the game like you like play it.

Second, to my knowledge Diablo 2 is still played by thousands, and not all of those are just botters. People who have been playing Diablo 2 have enjoyed a completely random loot table since it's earliest incarnation in Diablo 1.
...
And why has Diablo 2 gotten away with completely random loot for so long and so successfully? Is it then necessary to add specific loot to specific creatures in any ARPG?
D2 doesn't have a completely random loot table, it is enemylevel-based. Nihlithak and Pindleskin drop totally different items than Diablo and Baal, as for every creature that has their own level and thus drop something else. You couldn't get, or VERY rarely, a hell pike from a zombie in Act 1 but most demons in Act 5 dropped them occasionally. Diablo 2 is also one of the most played ARPG in the world and also the most farmed one, with extensive bot support.

Is predictability inherently fun, or is it inherently un-fun to just farm the same creature just to get a single item for your crafting profession?
Isn't this the whole idea of crafting ? Going on an adventure to get all the materials you need ? What's the use of crafting and materials if there's always enough ? I'm not going to go into your different types of "trash", the same I said a few paragraphs above apply there.

Once again I implore you to think critically - What use does the player get when he or she has to farm a specific creature for any particular item? Is that a fun behavior or consequence?

I would like to point out to the reader that those thoughts are highly debatable, is it fun to re-create a game knowing you are just doing it to farm a specific creature, or is it more fun to simply play the game and kill everything and hope for the best?
You are trying too hard to change other people's minds which is a result of your opinion being vastly different then everyone else's. Why do you want a small upcoming studio to make a game so different in mechanics ? Instead of trying to get people to change their minds with wall-of-text posts (sorry for this one...), think about what most people want and that the developers want to react those "most people", not just a small hardcore fanbase.

[Scryer]

Well, I suppose I could re-format my walls of text so that they are a little easier to understand.

I'm simply trying to put forth that trash as defined by me is an item that is never worth-while for the player except to sell.

Trash that is worth while for the player is trash that the player could use at one point or another. For example starting gear, base gear, and materials that the player can use at one point in the future or could have used.

I'm not trying to convince people in my posts, I'm trying to create posts that can get the average forum poster thinking about how they feel about the topic, I feel that with your post I have some-what succeeded in that.

[Malpheas]

Well, I suppose I could re-format my walls of text so that they are a little easier to understand.

<snip>

I'm not trying to convince people in my posts, I'm trying to create posts that can get the average forum poster thinking about how they feel about the topic, I feel that with your post I have some-what succeeded in that.

more preaching to the masses, eh?

Trash that is worth while for the player is trash that the player could use at one point or another. For example starting gear, base gear, and materials that the player can use at one point in the future or could have used.

Wahuh, trash that is worthwhile? Wait, do you just want good items?

[Scryer]

I'm not preaching, though it may feel that way while reading my post. I often say the word "should." That's my own mistake, but I feel that I bring up valid points, and I know a lot of people have other preferences and opinions but I personally would prefer to read a reasoned post not based entirely off of opinion.

I want items that are useful for the player, either with crafting or with the drop itself.

However, I also don't want there to be a lot of unnecessary drops that the player "has" to pick up. If the player fills his entire inventory with items and has no room to pick up items by the time they reach the next town then I believe that it is an unnecessary mechanic. In that case loot that drops should be even further reduced so that the player does not have to carry so much loot.

[Chameleon]

It wouldnit feel like a Hack N Slash ARPG if there wasn't tons of loot lying all over the ground after I slaughtered a gang of monsters...loot or even trash loot scattered around is almost what defines the genre for me.

I'd feel gibed if I went from one town to the next and didn't fill my inventory many times over.

Loot and lots of it is what many find the main appeal, take that away and the game wont feel right.

[Scryer]

Eh, having so much loot on the ground that you can't even carry it, is pretty pointless actually, I mean maybe a better idea would be to add literal trash that can't be picked up but adds to the RPG aspect of the game.

Seeing trash is one thing, but over-loading the player with trash is totally different type of game, it's over-whelming and can break action if you have to go back to town just to deposit the items.

[Phuncz]

You do know you do not *have* to pick up anything. If you consider something trah, leave it there.

[Llama8]

You do know you do not *have* to pick up anything. If you consider something trah, leave it there.

But if it doesn't get picked up & used for something (sold for cash or converted into materials, or whatever), then what's the point in it dropping? All it does is take up screen space, system resources (not much per item, but still) & potentially get in the way of the pointer/mouse (depending on how picking items up is dealt with).

If a user's never going to use feature X, why spend time implimenting it?

[Scryer]

I agree with that statement Llama8.

[andreyy]

You forget about the visual value. Doesn't it look cool in TQ when a unit dies and a dozen of items burst out of his corpse? ;p

[Scryer]

I never liked it to be honest, too much stuff on the ground made the game messy without there being a reason for it to be messy.

[jiaco]

You enter Athens lower warcamp and are ambushed by hordes of satyrs that attack you with bows, blades and magic.

You kill them all and thus the ground is littered with dead as well as loot.

I like it, messy as it may be, it was the coolest thing about TQ for me that the monsters equip and drop the same loot.

[Scryer]

Yeah, but how necessary is it to have a messy interface filled with items you couldn't possibly carry all of them let alone want to use them as you'd have something better.

I like the idea that trash should be visible but not something that the player can pick up just to fill their pack with unnecessary items.

Maybe it is fun to see all that mess on the floor that you created, so maybe it's best for trash to drop, but as a visual effect alone and not necessarily be something that the player attempts to stuff into their inventory to sell for a nominal amount of gold later.

[ASYLUM101]

As long as we're able to break down weapons and armor into crafting components, there's no problem here.

[Scryer]

I agree, as long as everything is useful in some-way then this game will always be fun to play.

Actually, I don't mind if some "Sell-only" items drop, but I think it would be awesome if these items were very rare and sold for a lot of gold.

That would create a different kind of important item that could be found by the player. One that is more valuable then having many items drop that sell for a nominal amount.

I still very much like the idea of "Trash visuals" though... kind of like paying homage to TQ but still moving the game forward in a better direction.

[MadWasp]

I think if all drop is yellow/green/blue/purple that is s***t...


Most of drop should be white(cracked, damaged one too). And If player got a better equipment he/she will be glad to has luck.


If something is common then lose its worth. If all drop is an unique that is bullsshh****t.:rolleyes: even smells like cheat&boring :)

[Roros]

I never really had a problem with junk drops. If I'm comfortable on cash, it's not worth my time and I leave it there. If I'm struggling, I can pick it up and shopfodder it for some change.
As long as you can filter it out (like most dungeon crawlers let you these days), it has no effect in terms of taking time to sort through it to find the good stuff. I have never had any issues with it lowering my framerate or anything like that.

I'm all for an improvement as long as it is an actual improvement, but I just honestly don't feel it's an aspect that has ever bugged me, and I far prefer junk drops over the over-streamlined itemization ala shadowgrounds or space siege.

[Scryer]

Even I don't think just items that are magical in some way (rare, magical unique, whatever) should always drop.

Items that the player doesn't always need that drop are great actually, and adding a visual effect to that is also great - looks like more stuff dropped that you would have normally never picked up like cracked plate leggings.

So while I agree item fodder can be a satisfying thing to "see" it does not mean it has to be a necessary part of game mechanics. A couple base items here and there sounds great to me though.

[Phuncz]

A way to eliminate some trash is to do away with "cracked" whites and only make the magical ones have a chance of being dropped damaged. You could then use something like crafting, if that's implemented, to repair it to full spec. I don't think people would pass on a unique dropping that's about 5-10 minutes away of fixing up. And fixing up whites is useless, they drop enough anyways (mostly) so it isn't really needed for them to be a timesink/adventure.

[Zero_Harker]

On more than one occasion I've picked up a trash item because I've seen that a new enemy is wearing some funky looking armour and I want to know what it looks like on my character.. so that I can look for a nice version later but sometimes that's hard to find.

Also I love that on TQ you can see enemies wielding the weapon they drop.. I thought that was a really nice feature.. It's like a trivia quiz where you have to name it based on it's effect and look before it drops. Or maybe that's just me.. Point is trash is fine.. if you don't wanna look at it press alt instead of Z.

[icedmetal57]

-in TQ specifically (again) i noticed that i would 90% of the time find, in a monster loot drop, better items than the merchants offered, RIGHT around the time that i had enough gold to purchase them in the first place. it was almost like clockwork, to the point where i felt like it was almost pointless past level 10 to even buy anything from merchants other than potions and services. (example: i try my best to save up 10,000 gold for an awesome helmet, only to find a slightly better helmet on a dead enemy right as i finally collect 9,500 gold)

This is actually something I was wondering about the shops in Grim Dawn, will they have more of a Borderlands vending machine aspect to them? If you're not familiar with that system, in Borderlands they had vending machines instead of merchants and the items they would have on sale, which would reset every 30 minutes or so, and stock a variety of items with a variety of rareness. You had as much of a chance to find something awesome as you would from a chest. It made the shops have some purpose to it. A lot of times I find shops in these types of games to be useless as far as buying gear from them as you'd always find better stuff being dropped by mobs, where in Borderlands I never felt that way.

As for the trash loot, I felt that Path of Exile did a good job in making the "trash" loot serve a purpose. All the trash items can be traded in for scraps of Scrolls of Identity which can be combined to make a whole Scroll of Identity, while the rarer items, last I recall, didn't reward you with Scrolls of Identity, but with other stuff. In that game I never felt overwhelmed with having to pick up every trash item if I felt I had enough Scrolls of Identity in my inventory. If I was running low on scrolls, I would then start picking up trash items.

In Titan Quest after I hit 10k gold, I think it was, I would stop picking up trash loot as I only needed that 10k gold to upgrade my stash. I'd typically reach that goal at maybe level 5 or so, which is really early into the game, after that I wouldn't pick them up, let alone even look at them unless I was desperate for a temporary upgrade in a gear slot that didn't have stellar attributes.

[Josho]

This is actually something I was wondering about the shops in Grim Dawn, will they have more of a Borderlands vending machine aspect to them? If you're not familiar with that system, in Borderlands they had vending machines instead of merchants and the items they would have on sale, which would reset every 30 minutes or so, and stock a variety of items with a variety of rareness. You had as much of a chance to find something awesome as you would from a chest. It made the shops have some purpose to it. A lot of times I find shops in these types of games to be useless as far as buying gear from them as you'd always find better stuff being dropped by mobs, where in Borderlands I never felt that way.

I also liked how Borderlands did it. Items refreshed every 15 minutes I think it was. But more importantly, it had something along the lines of a special item which stood out amongst the rest and was going to be a good item to use. I'd like to see that in Grim Dawn. Something like a monster unique item for sale as a reason to spend some gold.

[Kibou]

Some general ideas, in no specific order:

White items might be at least a little useful if they drop ahead of others, e.g. the next-highter class of more powerful body armor appears as a white items before yellow/green/unique ones show up.

I think to make looting more comfortable, a general goal should be to reduce the number of labels that pop up at once when you press the Alt Button - they all need reading, deciding, and clicking, and if there are too many of them, this tends to be work rather than fun. Also, loads of loot at once make each single item seem more meaningsless.

To have less items/labels on the screen at once, it would help to have chests not drop multiple smaller piles of gold, but just a single big one.

Yellow items should drop less often, but sell for a higher price. This would make them feel a little more valueable, and reduce the loot overflow.

I think it would be a good idea to have high-class loot eliminate other loot, e.g. if a chest drops a blue/purple item, it should not drop any whites and only very few yellows. This would would emphasize the special item and make it stick out more.

I think it would be helpful if containers (chests, barrels etc.) would not show up as text when you press Alt, but as icons - this would make it easier to tell apart items and containers, and make looting a bit more comfortable.

It could be nice to have a special effect (sound or animation) if high class (blue/purple) items drop. When I played Diablo 1 in the old days, I always got super-excited if I heard the faint "pling" of a ring being dropped - I've never been that excited about loot in any of the later ARPGs.

[CheeseAirship]

Probably been suggested, but surely the game should auto-pick-up gold. It doesn't require any bag space and as long as it tells me that I have found some then I wouldn't care. Does anyone really get a thrill out of clicking on it every time some drops. (I think the equivalent in GD would be iron)