Crafting, Health Management and Potion Making

[alexei]

There are other thread about crafting but this thread will be more about crafting potion.

For those who still not aware of it, medierra have explaining about potion and health management/balancing in auto-potion pickup thread.

Among the points in that thread is that the health menagement will be:
- potion is made to be scarce.
- potion have long cooldown.
- have outside battle fast health regeneration.
- potion can be made by crafting/alcheming from ingredients.
- merchant will have zero/very limited potions and expensive.
- potion ingredient will be quite important for other crafting too. So there will be involving decision making whether to use the ingredient to make potion or else.

From there, I'm a bit curious or concerned about how the crafting mechanism will be implemented.

I don't want to write long long wall of text though. Nobody interested in that.

1. How is the crafting process will be?

Is it like in WoW which have a interface of crafting profession. A list of item available to craft. Progress bar when start crafting. If there is no mechanism similar to leveling for crafting then progress bar logically is not needed. But it still fun to have it.

2. Where will crafting be available? In town? Or just craft anywhere? Or is it the crafting is not player skill but a service provided by merchant?

3. If player will craft without merchant, will there be a special requirement for crafting? For example, does player need to be at an anvil to craft weapon?

4. If crafting material is very diverse and there will be a bunch of them like in TQ, should we have a new inventory space for crafting ingredient only? For player to carry and also in the vault/stash.

Just curious. I'm not really throwing ideas or suggestion.

Anyway, because of the limited resource and fund, I will assume that the crafting system will be much like in TQ:
- Consist of a recipe and 3 ingredients.
- A crafted item can be use to make better item.
- Recipe is destroy/use to craft. Mean Recipe only can be used once.
- Recipe = blueprints

Btw, is it sensible to replace/rename potions as bandage or first aid kit? Originally, from the back of time, potions is used in rpg game that thematically have dark story with magic or sorcery world. Diablo bring along this concept in their game which is suitable for their world setting. But for GD, it is quite logical too to rename it for something like bandage/first aid since GD is not quite a magical/sorcery world. Just a hunch. I'm quite sure that I will be happy with anything you decide/implement.

[jiaco]

What if, instead of potions, we had a symbiotic parasite that was basically a part of the hud. Depending upon how you treat it, ie. give it crafting components, attribute points, skill enhancements, maybe even have items that give bonii to the symbiont, etc., the more effective this thing is at regenerating your mana and health as well as giving you bursts of hp/mp (akin to potions).

The bursts could be regulated with cooldowns (which could also be affected by bonii) and the regen could have different rates depending upon your combat status.

For me, this preserves the game mechanic but removes potions as both items to pick up and items to arrange in the inventory.

Also, if each class had a different symbiont, it could add something more to character development.

EDIT: bursts are controlled by the player just like potions are now. the idea with keeping it in the hud is just redundant for no potions to pick up and manage in inventory. regen and bursts(potions) would act just like in tq, regen on automatic and burst on hotkey/mouseclick.

[Scryer]

Very interesting idea Jiaco.

Replacing health / mana potions with some kind of a symbiotic parasite of some sort sounds interesting. Though, I think if we had that, you'd still have to give the player some control over when they wanted quick mana or quick health.

So, these creatures could level along-side the player, have their own skill system, that give's the player the ability to decide how they want to regenerate health and mana?

If they were on the Hud, you'd be able to click them for quick boost of mana or health, with a long cool-down.

You could pick between regenerating skills, leeching skills, or a combination of that 2.

No mana or health potions, just these guys?

[jiaco]

Reading over at TQ.net about That-Other-Game version III and the health orbs has got me thinking about this again. While I totally still prefer the symbiotic idea, what is a health orb but a health boost per kill. So why not program in the effect without the stupid red ball to chase? Basically, when your XP increases you also regenerate health. Simple and fluid for game play. No Mario chasing the Mushroom, no bending over to pick up a potion, just kill monster, get XP and get a bit of regen too.

I know we still need potions no matter what, you just cannot always be expected to find something you can kill when you are about to die, but I really dislike the interface component of both potions and health globs. The effect of globs is an okay idea, just do not want to see them on screen. Potions are sort of necessary, but I hate the inventory management aspects of them.

[Kluga]

In terms of potion management, I know Medierra said that they'd be stackable to 99. That'll make it heaps easier. Most people won't need 99 out in the field for any given time and probably wouldn't cosnume that many between stops.

I'll definitely +1 on the symbiotic parasite idea. Very, very cool sounds like it could be a great dynamic and heaps of fun.

EDIT: 1 problem I see is that people might be annoyed if they "grow" their parasite wrong so it's not giving them what they want, hence they will keep dying or run outta mana too frequently. Maybe it would have to be possible to regrow a parasite or mutate it or something along those lines.

[Boneflesh]

I prefer the good old potions system.

The parasite thingy is a good idea, it just doesn't fit in this sort of game, in my opinion.

[Renevent]

I prefer the good old potions system.

The parasite thingy is a good idea, it just doesn't fit in this sort of game, in my opinion.

Seconded...although I think the parasite idea just stinks :p

I don't think there is anything wrong with potions at all...maybe balance it a bit better this time around (longer cool downs, bigger stacks, ect) or whatever. To me potions in this genre are like a nice warm blanket. Medierra, please don't take away my woobie!

I will say perhaps renaming them to first aid kits (or something more in line with the later time period in GD) isn't a bad idea.

[ZZSmufa]

No woobies! I want the game to crush me like an iron maiden! Every mistake must be punished! I wanna play a roguelike, only HARDER.

Well anyway, the parasite idea does sound cool. It'd be nice to see something like that utilized in some future game. I guess I'll manage with the potions again in GD. :p

[eisprinzessin]

I will say perhaps renaming them to first aid kits (or something more in line with the later time period in GD) isn't a bad idea.
Cod liver oil :D

[Kardiophylax]

Basically, when your XP increases you also regenerate health. Simple and fluid for game play. No Mario chasing the Mushroom, no bending over to pick up a potion, just kill monster, get XP and get a bit of regen too..

I think that would be a nice class skill for a more in-your-face type mastery, but I'm not sure I'd like it as an overall gameplay mechanic.

I'm fine with potions, really. I wouldn't mind seeing a summon/pet that could supplement healing though. Something that could heal both you and your other pets would be pretty nifty, especially for a summoner type, though it could certainly find its purpose healing you as you wade through the enemies on your own. Of course, you'd have to keep it alive, too.

[Boneflesh]

I think that would be a nice class skill for a more in-your-face type mastery, but I'm not sure I'd like it as an overall gameplay mechanic.

I'm fine with potions, really. I wouldn't mind seeing a summon/pet that could supplement healing though. Something that could heal both you and your other pets would be pretty nifty, especially for a summoner type, though it could certainly find its purpose healing you as you wade through the enemies on your own. Of course, you'd have to keep it alive, too.

But that would make every class a pet class then. I'd really hate to see that.

[jiaco]

While also totally fine with potions these are the issues that I can see that warrant their modification:

1) picking up potions is like picking up gold. not the most fun part of the game, tolerable at best, but CAN be improved.

2) as you level up, you find better pots. Thus you need to go to town to sell the lesser pots (or just go ahead and drop those 99 lesser pots at your feet if you like) and then make sure that you do not pick up lesser pots anymore as the gods be damned if you accidentally drink one when you needed a bigger dose of HP.

3) in battle both picking up and using potions should be balanced. For example, if you are in the midst of a mob and you need a potion, but you do not have one, can you imagine the attempt of picking one up that just dropped? Well, for me, the same should be applied to drinking one. It is ridiculous that you can be armed with weapons and fighting and not missing a beat, drink a potion. Where did these 3rd and 4th arms come from? Plus, for bosses with lots of health, how many of us use the strategy: just stand in its face, bash away and drink another pot when the cooldown is over.

Now of course, we have had lots of posts here and on TQ.net about the mechanics of potions and we are mostly against a penalty (such as an animation or whatever) that prevents us from using a potion when we need it most. And that's what got me thinking in the first place that a symbiont could be a cool solution. On the other end of the spectrum, changing their names to first aid kits or worse would be totally futile. Imagine applying a first aid kit in the middle of combat.

[Renevent]

I believe at least a few of your concerns were addressed by medierra:

1) Potions (like gold in GD) will automatically be picked up when walking over/near them.

2) There is only one tier of potions now that do a set % of healing.

3) Partially addressed by point 1, and to you second point it doesn't have to be that realistic. Realism says one sword blow (especially by some towering demon) would put any man in his grave. Regarding the tactic/example you provided this does happen, but with smart boss design it doesn't have to. Titan Quest had this, especially with Typhon. No way you could stand toe to toe with him in that manner (unless you were totally tweaked out and could down him in like 20 seconds, at which point potions don't matter anyways) because he had a lot of abilities that prevented it.

And finally about the first aid kit...there wasn't a potion animation for drinking potions so why would we now stop to wrap a bandage? To me the only thing that changes is instead of hearing a "gulp" you hear some fabric "tearing" or something like that.

The bandage/potion thing doesn't really matter to me though, the mechanics behind it does.

[ASYLUM101]

And finally about the first aid kit...there wasn't a potion animation for drinking potions so why would we now stop to wrap a bandage? To me the only thing that changes is instead of hearing a "gulp" you hear some fabric "tearing" or something like that.

The bandage/potion thing doesn't really matter to me though, the mechanics behind it does.

Argh, this brings memories of Farcry 2.... how I hated, yet enjoyed that mechanic. Pulling bullets out of my arm was satisfying, except when I was near death in a crowded camp with nowhere to hide...

[Renevent]

Argh, this brings memories of Farcry 2.... how I hated, yet enjoyed that mechanic. Pulling bullets out of my arm was satisfying, except when I was near death in a crowded camp with nowhere to hide...

I thought that was actually really cool! Pulling bullets out and patting down fire was awesome hehe.

[Kardiophylax]

But that would make every class a pet class then. I'd really hate to see that.

I think you mistook what I meant. To quote myself,

"I wouldn't mind seeing a summon/pet that could supplement healing though. Something that could heal both you and your other pets would be pretty nifty, especially for a summoner type, though it could certainly find its purpose healing you as you wade through the enemies on your own. Of course, you'd have to keep it alive, too."

What I mean here is for one of the mastery trees to have access to this pet, not for all classes and characters to have to manage it. It would be something that could heal both the player, other players, and pets. Sort of a buffer pet similar to the way the Nightmare had buffed your other pets, only this one would focus on defense rather than offense. Associated skills for it could increase its single target healing, group healing, and possibly its own defensive barrier. It's certainly not something I would want forced on anyone. Just a thought anyway.

I still think potions should be the primary healing method for all characters. They've been fine for me since Diablo, and I'm still fine with them.

[Boneflesh]

I think you mistook what I meant. To quote myself,

"I wouldn't mind seeing a summon/pet that could supplement healing though. Something that could heal both you and your other pets would be pretty nifty, especially for a summoner type, though it could certainly find its purpose healing you as you wade through the enemies on your own. Of course, you'd have to keep it alive, too."

What I mean here is for one of the mastery trees to have access to this pet, not for all classes and characters to have to manage it. It would be something that could heal both the player, other players, and pets. Sort of a buffer pet similar to the way the Nightmare had buffed your other pets, only this one would focus on defense rather than offense. Associated skills for it could increase its single target healing, group healing, and possibly its own defensive barrier. It's certainly not something I would want forced on anyone. Just a thought anyway.

I still think potions should be the primary healing method for all characters. They've been fine for me since Diablo, and I'm still fine with them.

That would work fine, I agree.

About potions and bandages, there could be both in game. Potions would have instant healing and a long cooldown, used only when things get dicey in combat while bandages or food could be used for out of combat regeneration.