Level requirements on skills to make them scale better

[cel]

Skills having level restrictions (depending on "mastery" level - which should also have a level requirement - and skill level) is something I would like to see, especially if the game will feature a similar dual-classing system as TQ had.

In TQ it was hard to maintain a balanced repertuare (basically you were locked into using only one mastery on most cases to be able to progress through the game properly at later levels) of skills instead of just maxing the few key skills as soon as possible, especially the summoning spells, which started as overpowered (when at first it was possible to quickly raise the level up) , eating through enemies like butter and then at later times becoming utterly useless, as the monsters just kept getting tougher and tougher while the summoned creep did not change much. The problem couldn't be solved by powering up the skill to make it more useful even in the end (because it would be even more overpowered in the beginning) nor could it be solved by lowering it's power to make it less overpowered in the beginning (because it would be even more useless in the end), so instead the skills and skill levels should have level restrictions on them to ensure that the different levels can be scaled up better as the player levels up.

On the items that increase skill levels: There should be a lot more mods that increased certain skills (and their synergies, possibly grouped together in a single mod) by 1-2 and way less - preferably zero - items that had "all skills +1/2/3" mods, as a +1 to all skills could provide as much as 40 skill points (imagine +3 then) to the player, which was retardedly overpowered when compared to other mods that other items had, especially against items that had "+1/2 to skill x" mods, which were quite useless.

This way the ultimate level of a skill could be risen as well, as the cap of all skills couldn't be hit by stacking a few +x all skills items, but rather the player would have to choose which skills he wanted to be more powerful and thus the different ways to play a class would increase, making different builds even more interesting, currently it is more important to have 1 point in a skill to get all those +'s from the +x to all skills mods to them so you will effectively get 4-5 levels to it with a single point, making the first point the most important after you got your hand on items with these mods.

[ASYLUM101]

I agree, for the most part. I'm not too sure I understand what you're saying in the last paragraph, you want unlimited skill caps for skills? Not like TQ where you could only get +4? If thats what you mean, hell yeah I'm with you lol.

Skills and their respective levels should be independantly tied to the player's level, player's mastery level and the skill's current level. Would make things a bit more linear (big boohoo fest from some people lol) but tons easier to balance and make the scaling better.

[cel]

I agree, for the most part. I'm not too sure I understand what you're saying in the last paragraph, you want unlimited skill caps for skills? Not like TQ where you could only get +4? If thats what you mean, hell yeah I'm with you lol.

Heh, not unlimited, but higher (to +6, for example) to allow people to specialize better by using items to gain more levels in the respective skills (assuming there would be more items with +'s to specific skills and way less items with +'s to all skills, preferably none, or at least nothing higher than +1).

[An7hraX]

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you suggesting (for example), that through a quest you are able to unlock an extra level or two to a skill of your choice?

If that's the case it's nothing short of a brilliant idea as far as class diversity is concerned.

[cel]

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you suggesting (for example), that through a quest you are able to unlock an extra level or two to a skill of your choice?

If that's the case it's nothing short of a brilliant idea as far as class diversity is concerned.

The +skill part refers to affixes on items having more "+x to skill y" type of bonuses (possibly so that one affix would give +'s to a skill and its synergies) and less "+x to all skills" type of affixes.

[An7hraX]

Ah I understand, I don't see a reason not to have it, either in the D2 formula (which is what you said, max of +2 to all skills, max of +4 to Skill tree and max of +6 to a certain skill, the numbers of course are examples) or something the developers feel works better.

[eisprinzessin]

cel, in your second paragraph (http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5692) you focus on unbalanced pets. I think they should level in a linear way, too. In TQ they get a big boost, when you start epic and an even bigger on legendary ... but they hardly improve while playing on that mode.

I'm not so sure about level restrictions on skills. That might result in very little options for you build ... well, depends on how strict they are.

Another option (might be even worse) - set a cap for skills on normal and on epic mode ... oh, that would result in a weaker toon, if you farm on a lower mode. :p

[Azrael]

I don't know about this idea... I mean if I want to make a character that only specializes in say... two or three skills, what would I do with all the extra points I accumulate due to the skill level restrictions.

I feel like this would really detract from build diversity, because you would know that at each level this class can only be this powerful and can only have these skills up to this level... I'm gonna have to disagree on this one =/

[Renevent]

cel, in your second paragraph (http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5692) you focus on unbalanced pets. I think they should level in a linear way, too. In TQ they get a big boost, when you start epic and an even bigger on legendary ... but they hardly improve while playing on that mode.

I'm not so sure about level restrictions on skills. That might result in very little options for you build ... well, depends on how strict they are.

Another option (might be even worse) - set a cap for skills on normal and on epic mode ... oh, that would result in a weaker toon, if you farm on a lower mode. :p

I think one of the problems with pet progression was less with the +skills, and more to do with the lack of pet focused items. It also made finding items less interesting as there was not a lot of epic/legendary gear aimed towards pet stats and you had to rely mostly on greens.

In fact, I can't think of a single unique/epic/legendary item that actually increased pet damage...this was especially true of rings and amulets.

[cel]

I used summoning skills as an example for the skill level progression because they are a perfect example of something that was done horribly in TQ, the '+all skills' is a whole separate matter, which is why it is discussed in it's own paragraphs.

I don't know about this idea... I mean if I want to make a character that only specializes in say... two or three skills, what would I do with all the extra points I accumulate due to the skill level restrictions.

I'm not saying the level restrictions should be set so high that the player was forced into taking every skill possible, I'm saying it should be set so that the power of the skills could be made to progress with character level, instead of the current situation where you are pretty much forced into raising only a handful of skills to the max immediately if you want them to be the least bit useful and even then many of them have the problem of starting out as overpowered and getting utterly useless towards the end, that's just not fun.

Besides, this change wouldn't have any effect on your 2-3 skills only-build (which sounds a bit weird, considering 2-3 skills is exactly 1 skill with it's synergies), as you would actually be able to start upping your second (assuming GD will have dual classing as well, don't see why it wouldn't though, considering how cool it is) class as well, which was not a very good idea in TQ in the very beginning - you could try of course, but you would quickly run into a situation where your skills just couldn't keep up with the difficulty.

This way the player gradually keeps getting new skills and the feeling of character growth stays with the player (and they can choose not to raise a certain skill if they feel it is enough to deal with what he's currently facing) when you don't have to keep using the same 2-3 skills for 2 playthroughs to be able to afford raising some other skills to a non-utterly-useless level.

I feel like this would really detract from build diversity, because you would know that at each level this class can only be this powerful and can only have these skills up to this level... I'm gonna have to disagree on this one =/

The diversity doesn't suffer because the end result (for lower tier skills, near-future result) is exactly the same regardless of wether or not we have the level limits on skills. The only thing that changes is the way we take to get there, where it used to be pretty much "max the key skills one by one", it would now be "pick a few of the skills you're going to get anyway and slowly watch them get stronger as your character levels up and monsters get stronger and actually be able to use your class the way you're planning on using it much earlier. It only gets more diverse as you're able to pick a few skills more from your classes instead of being forced into concentrating on the few key skills and playing the game for a week before seeing even half of the skills that the class requires to function the way you want to be playing with it (in TQ, you wouldn't see even half of them by the time you completed the game once just because you needed to rise them to very high levels lest they be useless, it's more fun when you gain a few new skills every now and then and are able to rise the old ones in power gradually to match the creatures you're facing).

Other than that, all I can add is that the level requirements would of course be balanced to still offer the players a wide range of choises in how to level up their character instead of posing a huge restriction. It should not be a restriction, but rather something that makes it possible to balance the skills alot better to match the players level and thus the more in line with the difficulty of the monsters the player is facing (no more "I max this and swoop through half the game with it because it is so bloody powerful" and then it becomes useless).

[cel]

Something else that I thought could add a bit more diversity into the game with very simple changes:

This all assuming that GD will have a dual / somekind of a 2-class system as TQ had (I can imagine the chorus of devs and members of the community singing:
"Of course it will~
Of course it will~
Of course it will~"

Implement 1-3 skills (or 1-2 skills + possible synergies) per Mastery (or Class, whichever it is called) that the player only gets if that particular MC (Mastery or Class) is his / her primary MC. This would really make the primary MC the _primary_ one and same for the secondary, creating yet more options for the players choice of class with minor tinkering).

These skills should of course not be fundamental skills that defined the MC itself, but rather something that some people might call "ultimate" skills of that MC.

As an example, TQ might have had a meteor spell (as it had in Underlord-mod; not as a primary-only though) for Earth mastery as a skill that only Earth-primaries would get.

[SlayerII]

I only read the first post, so sry if i dont care about the others.

A big "PLS NOT". If i wanted to sue a skill early and sacrifed the use of other skills, then this was my choice. I dont want to be forced this way...
Level Requipments are fine for Items, but there stupid at skills.

edit: There should not be a differnce beetwen the first and tthe second mastery in my opnion...

[cel]

Care to elaborate a bit as to why?

I already explained why skills having level requirement is a good thing, not a restriction, as it not only enables the devs to balance the skills better to scale better as the difficulty of the game progresses towards hard (making gameplay experience much smoother, instead of difficulty suddenly being yanked up a notch because the monsters just got tougher but your already-maxed skills didn't scale to that change - other skills scale worse than others) but it also lets the player to start using his class as he would later on (meaning he would not have to play through the whole game once just to have enough points to have more than 2 skills to use, not to mention secondary class), as instead of just maxing the specific key skills, he could invest into other skills as well without the fear of that skill being totally useless because it is not maxed.

If you see error in my logic, then I'm sure you can point it out, otherwise, I implore you to read the text again, until you understand the actual effects that this change would have and only then form an opinion about it.

Same rant to the second opinion: Why is it bad that players have alot more choices as to what kind of a class they want to play? Class diversity only adds to replay value.

[SlayerII]

1) its only a restriction, nothing more.At least if it is still the same system as it is in TQ(you have invest into the mastery). So you could decide to max out skills early, which is your chioce. But maybe you dont need that skills. Or only 1 Point fits enough. Sure it may be a better idea to use some early skills, but there is no need maxing them out early, its better to use much skills which includes higher tieer skills.

2)To be honest, its jsut a restriction with which mastery you have to start. You cant experiment anymore, you have to choose extremly early what you going to to do. Allwoing all skills to be used ether it is your first or second mastery allow you to do what you want.
You said it adds more classes? it simply destroys the nice fetuere of the 2 classes which you want to combine like you like. i dont feel like i suddenly have to choose at lvl2 waht im exactly going to do. maybe i want to change later a bit? I start as a archer , while im not using much stat points, and later on want to be meele. But i cant cause the important meele skills are only aviable if i choose the meele mastery first? Wy? I just want to start as an archer casue its easier, and i need the archer mastery for some damage incrase as a meele later on.

[cel]

Well, go read my other post on page 1, then continue from here:

After that, tell me why system a) is better than system b)

a) No requirements: By spending all your points, you max a certain key-skill by the time you're lvl 10, it starts out extremely powerful, making playing the game for the next 10 levels so easy you could put a blindfold on and still do good, then the games raising difficulty slowly catches up with it and its effectiveness starts to lower. 20 levels later, the skill outright sucks because it did not scale well and it couldn't be made any more powerful, because it would've been even more imba in the beginning, as the player was allowed to max it right away. This same hulabaloo happens again at the next difficulty level after beating the game, as the skill gets a boost at the higher difficulty levels, this time it just gets useless even faster, that's not all: it happens a third time too at the hardest difficulty level too, only, this time it doesn't even start out as powerful, but pitiful, not far away from being completely useless. Of course, by this time the player has maxed his skills one by one and is starting to be close to finally being able to have all the skills he was planning on using with the class to a non-useless level, and it only took 2 playthroughs!

b) With Level requirements: Devs can balance the skill to scale much better with the rising difficulty and the player can spend points to the skill throughout the first playthrough - experiencing an even, but slowly growing difficulty the whole way - even leaving a few points for the next difficulty level and the power of the skill scales through all that nicely, making the skill actually serve the player throughout the game instead of being a low-level wonder. The player also had a few extra points to invest in other skills he was planning on using and wow, since the skills scale and have level requirements, they are actually useful too, unlike in the system with no restrictions where the 2nd class was useless for a long time because the skills had to be pretty much maxed to have any visible effect in gameplay experience

In case you were wondering: yes, the first skills in this example I was talking about were pretty much every summoning skill in the game (you can include all the skills that scale badly with equips to that group as well).

Other than that, all I can say is why do you assume the devs wouldn't implement a way to switch primary / secondary classes around just like they allowed for skill reallocation in TQ? There's no need to assume the worst of everything, the whole skill point system would suck too without a way of reallocating them, it's the same with the skill level requirements, assuming they would be extremely tight not allowing any kind of decisions in what to invest due to skills not being available is nothing short of stupidity, they are there to balance the game, which they do very well, unless you see the worse in everything.

[SlayerII]

wtf? skills scale later on by investing stat points! The system you want is close to some MMORPGS where you are only able to skill 1 way. I want to to what i want, i dont want such stupid requigments. First i invest skill points so the spell gets damage, later on i get better gear so the spell still is scaling.
AT D2, where level requicments exist, it was a bit different. You could not boost damage by incrasing stats(at least if you are a mage.But the damage which str offered was pretty nothing). There the requipments where ok. But not in a System like TQ. ´There i want to invest skill points like i want to invest them, not like some stupid level requipments tell me to do.

There still ways to balance game without. Its much more fun without. Wy we should having fun by adding levelr equipments? or making classes different simply casue i choose earth first, alltought i dont want to play a caster? You want to force me to take warface first cause i need to high tier skills as a meele later on? how stupid is this?

[Renevent]

If you don't want to play a caster why would you take a caster class as your first pick? It's not stupid, it makes absolutely perfect sense.

In TQ I think there was a bit of overlap between the class combos because there was no difference between primary/secondary masteries...so earth/defense = defense/earth which I thought was a bit flawed.

I don't think there should be restrictions on secondary masteries though...what I would like to see is bonuses to the players primary mastery.

[SlayerII]

If you don't want to play a caster why would you take a caster class as your first pick? It's not stupid, it makes absolutely perfect sense.

Maybe i want to use some spells first? like this fire ring spell, which was quite usefull in early game. Getting bonuses from first mastery makes sense.But other skills are a quite bad idea.