Stage quests and remove these obnoxious quest icons

[eisprinzessin]

Please remove quest icons from NPCs and stage quests in a more authentic way. These quest icons are certainly a convenient way to present quests and to work them off, but at the expense of immersion. There is also little satisfaction upon picking them up and finishing them off - almost like work on the assembly line.

Quests better start, proceed and end with scripted scenes. People might come to you and seek your aid (or offend you or whatever it takes you to leave your sheltered place). The road might provide you with hints, other wanderers share news with you, and you need to find the next place to find out more about it.

Once you have completed a quest line, people should acknowledge your progress. People in Greece tell you, when Leonidas has moved to Athens. But Feiyan keeps telling you, that you need to vanquish Typhoon, if you revisit her in Chang'an after your triumph over him.

[Renevent]

It's an ARPG mang...it supposed to be fast paced and quests in these games are usually for getting bonuses (exp, items, skill points, attributes, ect) and things like that. And I really don't want to see cut scenes every time I grab a quest...that would just break up the action and is something I don't want to see. Maybe the first time through the game it would be nice...but these games are meant to be played over and over and over...it just doesn't fit well.

Also, I like the quest icons...tells me exactly who has something for me to do. I don't want to talk to every joe in town trying to figure out who has a job for me...leave that stuff for games like Risen, Gothic, and Elderscroll games.

[Malpheas]

I was going to say... I'm not playing King's Quest IV: The Perils of Rosella (last of the great non-mouse driven KQ games by Roberta Williams).

[Annihilator]

This "mang" is likely a lady, hence the name "Ice princess".

Anyway, I would like the quest icons to be more like the WoW icons. Having a yellow exclamation mark for an available quest, a gray exclamation mark for an unavailable quest, a gray question mark for a quest you're on, and a yellow question mark for a quest that can be turned in.

The system in TQ was a mess I found, I never knew when you can turn it in, and when you just need to talk to that guy to advance on a quest.

Having quests not marked would be annoying as hell.

[ASYLUM101]

This "mang" is likely a lady, hence the name "Ice princess".

Anyway, I would like the quest icons to be more like the WoW icons. Having a yellow exclamation mark for an available quest, a gray exclamation mark for an unavailable quest, a gray question mark for a quest you're on, and a yellow question mark for a quest that can be turned in.

The system in TQ was a mess I found, I never knew when you can turn it in, and when you just need to talk to that guy to advance on a quest.

Erm, Ice Princess is just his title, he already told us he was a mang.

And, I don't know what was wrong with the system in TQ. It worked great, most quests you didn't even have to return to the quest giver to complete it(which ruins immersion, but who cares, it's easier)

[Starkrun]

In my experience without a quest icon in the minimap or on the big map. it forces the game into a linear event. How else can you quell frustration of the average player who may only have a lunch break or an hour to play.

If this is an issue im sure a GUI toggle would work to fix this issue. Also if you removed them all together i would want the ability to set my own way points, and maybe at least 2 waypoints. Or use a stat like perception to help you find goals or hidden secrets instead of a shaded out arrow.

In the end a toggle is best for this issue, keep it on or remove it... regardless if someone needs help they drop to the internet. Personally i love waypoints, makes the world feel huge and exciting. Even if its a linear hallway constructed from trees and monsters.

[Malpheas]

It worked great, most quests you didn't even have to return to the quest giver to complete it(which ruins immersion, but who cares, it's easier)

Yeah, I liked that. It didn't break the flow of the action in the game. Man, not like potions and town portals did. Jeez.

[yerkyerk]

There's one muse in TQ:IT that truly acknowledges your existence and sings a song about you :)

I was ok with the system in TQ. Nothing spectacular, but that's it I guess, the focus shouldn't be on an elaborate quest system, especially if you're just going to handle quests effectively, rather than realistically.

Some acknowledgement of your deeds would be interesting, but I didn't find it too disturbing in Titan Quest, seeing that you just travelled onwarth to the next location. With Grim Dawn I think more acknowledgement and interaction would be better though, since it's focussing more strongly on a single location.

As for cutscenes; I love them (as long as they're skippable), in-game or movies alike. So I won't object there :)

[psisci]

even though this is an arpg, i like the surprise of approaching a npc character
without knowing if i will find a quest or just a story, that way i need to think who is whom and where am i in all the different times of my game, it adds up to the depth of the game :D

[Malpheas]

Hey Psisci, did you ever play Dungeon Siege II? This was a lot like that. At least, some npcs were. The main story, that is. Otherwise it was playing "Find the Quest Giver" like most other arpgs.

Come to think of it... I miss DSII, anyone up for a game?

[psisci]

Hey Psisci, did you ever play Dungeon Siege II? This was a lot like that. At least, some npcs were. The main story, that is. Otherwise it was playing "Find the Quest Giver" like most other arpgs.

Come to think of it... I miss DSII, anyone up for a game?

no i haven't :cry:
but what i am saying, that you can finish the game without doing small quests, and the big ones will be coming to you.

and so for example , if you are a magic user, some wondering magical npc could give you a quest that will eventualy make you stringer ( items/skills ). but for a melee toon, he will just give a nice insight about the story.....

[eisprinzessin]

WOAH - so much response. This has already become my most successful thread. :) psisci has caught my wish for deeper gameplay. (http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4938) As GD is supposed to have deeper gameplay, I was hoping this could be changed/improved in GD. I consider story and lore to be part of the gameplay in any (A)RPG.

And I really don't want to see cut scenes every time I grab a quest...that would just break up the action and is something I don't want to see. Maybe the first time through the game it would be nice...but these games are meant to be played over and over and over...it just doesn't fit well.
I like reading a good story - any game with a good story is worth to be replayed. Good cut scenes are a welcome break after lots of fighting.

I used to play "pure" RPGs ... it would make me very happy, if GD took a leaf out of their book.

And, I don't know what was wrong with the system in TQ. It worked great, most quests you didn't even have to return to the quest giver to complete it(which ruins immersion, but who cares, it's easier)
Here we have a slacker knows the truth but ignores it though ... shame on you :p

... some posters have not voted yet ... strange :confused:

[ASYLUM101]

Come to think of it... I miss DSII, anyone up for a game?

I'd have to dig up my 4 (or 5?) disc set and reinstall that baby, but I'd be up for that. I loved that game.

Here we have a slacker knows the truth but ignores it though ... shame on you

Lol, I have nothing wrong with having to find the designated quest giver and hunting down the quest, provided I have VERY good instructions on how to do it. Morrowind, for example, did a mediocre job on this and for that reason I could spend HOURS trying to figure out what to do, which was pretty annoying. I liked TQ's system because it was very simple, talk to the guy with the icon, do whatever he says which MOST of the time, doesn't even give you a location on the map. Only really important main quest things(special bosses, special items, etc). Sure, I could live without that stuff, but like I said, if the instructions are somewhat vague, it'll piss off lots of people. I could play without them, I just prefer them because yes, I am a slacker.:)

[Roros]

Personally ("personally" being the operative word, I know I might be of a minority), I don't care much for quests at all. Even in torchlight where you have a bare minimum of side quests ("kill these bosses that you'll run into anyway" and "pick up this item during your main quest"), I only did them because I felt I "had" to in order to reap the rewards and not because I wanted to.

I prefer it when the game gives you a general overarching goal, and it's up to you to push forward. I used to be real big on mmo's a few years ago when they were more about sandbox and pvp, but I never live past the first month (usually not even a week or two) in today's quest driven mmo's.

[yerkyerk]

I don't care too much for sidequests either; but moreso because they don't last forever, like your character does. Once you've done them, that's it and they're out of the game. I'd prefer an infinite quest system, where you run into quests.

Stuff like; while roaming around, you run into a caravan that you need to escort to any nearby settlement. Or defend a hide-out that's under siege. Or collect monster samples for a researcher/hunter. Beat the champion, retrieve objects, etc..

If they're infinite, there's no bother in completing them for a sense of fullness; as that will never happen. That could paradoxically also relief people from the pressure of completing useless sidequests they only do for the sake of having completed the game 100%.

[Annihilator]

Well, I for one found it confusing, not knowing if that npc has a quest thats ready to turn in, or has a new one, or is just one to talk to to continue the quest. I often don't even finish the dialogues because its tiring me, I just look what I have to do, and do it. What I described in my first post would also be the most comfortable way, I find it worked great in world of warcraft, and games that adopted that scheme but then tried to make it look less copied with using different symbols, it just got more messy and confusing (I think Warhammer Online did that).

I would like to see clearly and easily on NPCs and on the mini map when I can accept or turn in a quest.

[alexei]

I don't see any problem with TQ system. Quest icon is fine because I want to know who have quest for me and whose's not. Just like starkrun said, for those who don't like it, having toogle is an easy solution here. Otherwise, it's like playing mainstream RPG like elderscroll and I don't like it.

Cutscene is ok I think for main quest. And normal text for side quest. For satisfaction, adding a short music/sound effect before and after completing quest would be really great. Just like in Dungeon Siege 2. Dramatic sound that raise our soul.

Also, I want to have waypoint like trees and road. Without them, having to figure out way to proceed would be troublesome and making the game lose some of the quick pace action feels.

[rjeid]

If I have to waste more than 3 minutes trying to find wherever Georas is in Mazelike City without any indicator on him to let me know WHEN I've found him... I'm going to get frustrated.

There's a "philosophy" in web design: Anybody on your site should be able to find what they're looking for in 5 mouse-clicks or less. NPC-dependent quests should follow that same philosophy. Sorry, but if there's no indicator and I have to walk all over Mazelike City while stopping and hovering my mouse over every frickin NPC to see if they're named Georas... I'm not likely to play the game very long.

Now, if everything were driven via scripted engagement... if Georas saw ME coming and instead of waiting for me to pin the tail on the donkey, he ran up to me and engaged me... that would work too. But as a player, I demand either quest icons, or scripted engagement.

Just my 2 cents.

[Llama8]

talk to the guy with the icon, do whatever he says which MOST of the time, doesn't even give you a location on the map.
Which was rarely an issue in TQ since the game was so linear, you'd either run into the objective as you move through the main quest, or it was a (small) side turning.

[Malpheas]

Llama's right, although there were like 2 quests you could miss if you weren't careful, perhaps 3.

I'd like to see more "off the beaten path stuff". But that's just me.

[Renevent]

Llama's right, although there were like 2 quests you could miss if you weren't careful, perhaps 3.

I'd like to see more "off the beaten path stuff". But that's just me.

According to medierra, it sounds like we will get something along those lines. Supposedly the world will be setup in a different fashion, where towns will be like quest hubs and the locations will be wheel spokes around them.

[Malpheas]

Here's what I don't get... The quest system was completely manageable and not confusing to me. Compare locations with the automap or main map and you'll see a legend and quest giver icon. When the quest was done the "!" went to clear grey. How is that confusing?

The follow-through in the "Quest Log" was that the quest was checked off as being done with the reward given.

With regards to this, eisprinzessin's, thread about how quests should be done... I agree, to a point, for main questlines that it would be nice to see a cutscene (not cgi, but scripted) to give the main story or draw attention to import of the main story.

We don't really need a change in the way things are done with regards to quests and their recording. I liked the TQ system and it was straight forward. I'm pretty sure most people who played TQ will agree with me.

/rant

[eisprinzessin]

I agree, to a point, for main questlines that it would be nice to see a cutscene (not cgi, but scripted) to give the main story or draw attention to import of the main story.That's probably a good middle course. These cutscenes can be short, but the world around would become much more lively.

I don't care too much for sidequests either; but moreso because they don't last forever, like your character does. Once you've done them, that's it and they're out of the game.I actually find it strange how PC-RGPs differ from console-RPGs in this respect. The RPGs I played on the PS1 have a deep main quest and only some additional tasks, you need to pursue on your own. They are more like puzzles, which is apparently something many of the posters here don't appreciate.

For GD I'd like to see a stronger focus on the main quest. Side quests should be more related to the main story. Some side quest can last longer, and spotlight NPCs, villains or Cairn in general.

[Renevent]

I actually find it strange how PC-RGPs differ from console-RPGs in this respect. The RPGs I played on the PS1 have a deep main quest and only some additional tasks, you need to pursue on your own. They are more like puzzles, which is apparently something many of the posters here don't appreciate.

I think you are mixing genres...Grim Dawn is an Action RPG (Diablo clone)...not a regular RPG. It's not that people here don't "appreciate" deep story telling, it's just we (me) see that it's not what makes these types of games and can actually conflict with the pacing and mechanics of them.

I love games like Risen, Morrowind, Fallout, ect ect ect ect...

I don't think there is anything wrong with suggesting a better narrative, stronger focus on the main story, and cooler characters...but when you are talking about removing quest indicators, in game cutscenes, and stuff like that you are directly impacting the pacing and focus of the game.

[Malpheas]

Oh right, and like Yerk suggested, make them skippable. Best solution I think.

[yerkyerk]

Yup, there's lots of 'proper' RPG's out there for the pc that you described eisprinzessin; but the Diabloclone genre is all about fast pacing and character building (skills and equipment), not about deep story telling and travelling long, unpopulated distances. That's more the field of Morrowind, Oblivion, Gothic series, Risen, Fallout, even Dragon Age. They're rather low-paced and have much less focus on in-game action.

Still, wouldn't mind some sweet cutscenes.

Or just a 'simple' sort of killcam; when you kill the big boss, do the last hit in slow motion and circle the camera around the player :D

[Malpheas]

Torchlight had something like that, but it was a byproduct of the "pause" key. Still you don't have to do that in a multiplayer game.

[eisprinzessin]

but when you are talking about removing quest indicators, in game cutscenes, and stuff like that you are directly impacting the pacing and focus of the game.I was fully aware of the drastic change, I've suggested. That's why I created the poll - would have been surprised, if option 1 had received more votes than 2 or 3. :p

but the Diabloclone genre is all about fast pacing and character building (skills and equipment)I still think, that you can create a great game by combining both genres. Might not be a good business decision for Crate at this point though. ;) IMHO anything called *RPG is supposed to focus on more than just skills and equipment.

[yerkyerk]

We make genres just to fit stuff in boxes that actually doesn't fit in boxes just because it's more convenient to talk about. I think something is going wrong somewhere if the restrictions of these boxes that don't fit in the first place, are applied upon a product, instead of the product defining the genre.

[eisprinzessin]

There is much truth in your words, yerkyerk.

Regarding my submission - although in different context ...

We're good at making things better and incrementally improving. Crazy new ideas are better left to those with lots of time and money to experiment.

When we come up with a big new idea that just seems obviously, all-around good, we sometimes take a risk. [...]

Making fundamental changes to systems that people already enjoy just seems like an unnecessary risk with little upside.

I still hope, that GD will feature more cutscenes to animate the NPCs on Cairn. I'm not asking for much ... just something like the woman at Chang'an's gate or the soldier (between Rhodos and Medea's Grove), who seeks your aid.

[TECHNOmancer]

I'd like to see more in-game scenes, or even more dialogue with run-of-the-mill townspeople. Getting a simple line that reveals a bit of backstory from a random villager does add some depth to the experience. Those who care to skip the interaction are free to do so. Players who take a couple of minutes to chat up the locals will feel that the world is more rich and substantial.

TECHNOmancer

[jiaco]

My vote is AGAINST cut scenes. If you do go down that road, please make it possible to disable them completely at least in a config file. I do not want to wait for something to load that I am only going to click through once it starts.

IMO, TQ was fine for quests. My immersion is in the killing.