A sincere apology to the folks at Crate

[zidders]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to apologise for not being able to get one of the donator packages, even tho i'd really like to. It's something I think is an awesome way of doing things, but my finances irl suck. The whole concept of getting behind a developer and a game you really believe in and want to see come to fruition is one that I think is incredible...but also one where, when one is living below the poverty level and on disability income, it is frustrating to not be a part of.

Titan Quest (and it's sequel) have given me countless hours of fun, allowed me to share adventures with friends and given us all a damn good action/rpg, one of the best ones out there...and there are so few really GOOD ones. Trust me...over the years, i've played pretty much every one of them.

Also...I used to pirate games. A LOT...and i'm sorry to admit that when I first got TQ and the expansion, it was in this manner. Eventually, I picked it up on STeam...but it bugged me that when I finally decided to stop pirating and support the developers of games I love and enjoy, that I knew you guys weren't getting any money from it.

Part of why I stopped pirating was getting to know some of the developers over at Runic and seeing just how much they had in common with me as a gamer, and seeing just how hard they were working to make a game that people would love and especially seeing them take care of the fans of their game AFTER the game was out. A lot of game companies DON'T.

So that's why I'm apologizeg. I'm probably doing it needlessly, or maybe being a tad overdramatic, but there it is....I want to support you guys, but can't right now. I'm very sorry....i'm especially sorry that I didn't support you guys when TQ originally came out...but I promise, as soon as i'm able, i'll try my best to get even the $20 package...because we action/rpg lovers need more GOOD a/rpg's....we need to support the developers that make great games in general.

-Zid-

PS:To those who HAVE donated...thank you. It's not just these guys who are going to benefit from making this game the best they can, it's all of us gamers as well.

[ASYLUM101]

Amen brother!

[Renevent]

Very cool thing to say, and I am glad you realized how important our support is to game developers.

I think most people at one point (especially when they were younger) did what you did, unfortunately not all of them actually mature past their own selfishness. Whats more, is a lot of the time when people do realize these things and change their behavior, it's usually after they start working and can afford games. For you to understand this even while you can't afford games is noble.

Anyways, it's a good attitude and when you conduct yourself with responsibility and maturity good things start happening :cool:

[medierra]

Wow man, don't know what to say. Thank you for the heart-felt post. There are a lot of people with plenty of money who pirate stuff just because they can. It is really admirable to see that you've adopted such a conscientious attitude despite your difficult financial situation.

Take heart my friend, though you are currently without funds, you are not without a voice! You can still show your support by continuing to spread the good word. ; p

[deimos]

Shamefully i, too, must admit i used to be a hard-core pirate with anything i could get my hands on. Slowly i started turning legit, beginning with the most simple applications such as audio converters etc. I found freeware solutions for most, bought myself a license of PrevX for security and so on.

Realizing these things comes with age i suppose. Now, where i work, i hear these kids asking each others where they downloaded this and that and which group is going to crack that game etc. Annoying, but i've been there.

My next pay day is still miles away but this pre-ordering Grim Dawn with all the betas and whatnot seems tempting enough already. :)

[FlawleZ]

Shamefully i, too, must admit i used to be a hard-core pirate with anything i could get my hands on. Slowly i started turning legit, beginning with the most simple applications such as audio converters etc. I found freeware solutions for most, bought myself a license of PrevX for security and so on.

Realizing these things comes with age i suppose. Now, where i work, i hear these kids asking each others where they downloaded this and that and which group is going to crack that game etc. Annoying, but i've been there.

My next pay day is still miles away but this pre-ordering Grim Dawn with all the betas and whatnot seems tempting enough already. :)

Pull the trigger man. You know its a worthwhile investment. I didn't think twice about it.

And much respect to you zidders. We all know that support of any kind is welcomed here whether its in the form of financial or not. Keep doing what did with Titan Quest and spread the word of this new game. Simply reaching the ears of those that would be interested can go much further than you might think.

[zidders]

I am, man, I am. I'm not trying to judge those who do download games, or say that i'm somehow better than them. I'm not. Me doing my best not to download games and stuff from the internet has more to do with me having been diagnosed with kleptomania back in the 90's. For a few years, I managed to 'stay clean'...and then in 2001, I went onto the internet for the first time...and it was like being a kid in a candy store, as far as being able to download stuff, only there wasn't anyone watching the store, and before i'd entered the store, someone had handed me a bag of holding.

Being on the forums with the folks over at Runic, seeing the interaction between the folks who were at Iron Lore and now at Crate, and having a friend who is going to school for game design has made me see the other side of the whole equation. Again...not trying to judge or get into a debate over software piracy...just stating my own personal reasons why, every time I see a new game I REALLY want but can't afford and think about downloading a pirated copy, I now start feeling a little guilty.

What it mostly comes down to tho (before people start thinking i'm trying to make myself out as some sort of superhero) is that i'm mostly doing this for selfish reasons. I want more people to support Crate so that when I DO have money, I can sink it into a badass game and allow me to take my mind off of whatever former-klepto-DT's i'll probably be suffering from lol.

[Merzeal]

I'm in the same boat, being unemployed and such, I don't splurge on games as I did when money wasn't as much of a concern. I'm also moving cross country with just my clothes in a few short months, so I'm not able to contribute, but I do support this game and have mentioned it to friends.

On piracy: I've done it, a lot. A recent change in my opinion of piracy came from interaction between indie devs and the consumer base. After seeing Frozenbyte's heart felt thanks to the community after the release of Trine, I bought that and 2 other games they put out. They were on sale and I had just enough money to do so, and I felt great for doing it. I didn't play the games much, but I felt like I contributed to a smaller group of people trying to get by.

TL;DR - I can't support you at the moment, but when finances are better, I am behind this project. In the mean time, I will spread the word. TQ was fun and I'm certain this will be great.

[VeggieBoy]

I am glad that you are feeling remorse.

There is never a legitimate reason to be a thief. There are no viable excuses. If you can't afford something, then you shouldn't just steal it. Its immoral.

Shame on you- :furious:

[Merzeal]

Actually, in theory, if you can't afford it, the developers wouldn't receive money for the goods anyways, and since piracy is now a digital thing, they don't lose the physical object.

So basically, if one can't afford the goods in question, a company shouldn't factor it in as "lost money". You can't get something from nothing!

While it is easy to debate this, in theory it comes down to the difference between poverty related "thievery", and greed based "thievery". Yet again, stealing is more common to people who can't afford to make ends meet easily.

This is a silly topic to debate. Yes, piracy hurts companies, but let's face it, 95% of the games released these days are total garbage, and demos are either non-existent due to size constraints, or they are just bad. Why buy a buggy game that blows more than Paris Hilton?

[Renevent]

Get real. Poverty theft is stealing bread to eat...not kids ripping games off of torrent because their mommy won't let them use their credit card.

And games with demos get ripped off at the same rate as games without.

Just empty excuses...as usual.

I don't care that people pirate, I don't equate it to jacking a car, and I don't think the people who do it are terrible people. But I think the folks that try and moralize it, downplay it's effect, and make all the same empty excuses need a reality check.

At least be honest...damn.

[ASYLUM101]

And games with demos get ripped off at the same rate as games without.


Lawl, trudat. I've done it. Mostly because I don't want to feel limits by the demo, and because sometimes demos are buggier than the game. But if I don't like it, I'll trash it, otherwise I'll buy it. :) Like demigod, or Loki. Both games I tried by pirating. Ended up buying Demigod, and trashing loki cause ... I didn't find any fun in that game lol.

[Jerich]

I have actually tried to press the contribute button a few times, but it says they are no longer accepting pre-orders.

- Jerich

[VeggieBoy]

Actually, in theory, if you can't afford it, the developers wouldn't receive money for the goods anyways, and since piracy is now a digital thing, they don't lose the physical object.

That's the biggest load of garbage I've ever heard.

Actually, in theory, you ARE stealing from. Said pirated company originated from somewhere, eh? You're able to touch, hear, and see it... its physical.

If 25,00people pirated a 30 or 40 dollar game, and played it regularly that means the company is out close to a million dollars. And that could make or break a company.

There you go, making up excuses, trying to justify your actions. Just because its bad that does not mean you have the right to take it. If you're going by that, then is it also okay for someone who can't afford a car to take someone's car just because its garbage? Or lets say a car dealership doesn't want you to take the car for a test drive [Demo], is it okay for you to just take off in to test it out? No-

There is not a justifiable reason, theory, or anything to take something that is not yours without paying for it. It may suck or you may not be able to afford it, but people still put effort in creating it. They took their own time and money to offer it to the masses.

It isn't a natural or civil law to just take things, so its an evil and malicious act.

[Renevent]

The car thing doesn't work so well, but there are other analogies...

-Would you sneak into a movie, and only pay if you liked it?

-Would take an architect drawings without paying him for his design?

-Would it be ok if Crate used someone else music in their game without royalties?

It doesn't matter...anyway you slice it it's wrong. Yeah yeah bla bla not every pirated copy is a lost sale...but somewhere in there is lost revenue. There's other costs to piracy too, like bad cracks that make people think a game is buggy, and support costs to pirates (estimated at 30% by many devs...that's money directly out of their pockets!).

If you do it, whatever, but stop making excuses.

[VeggieBoy]

I was just using the most common argument and it does apply well. I like the theater analogy though, really good.

It doesn't matter...anyway you slice it it's wrong. Yeah yeah bla bla not every pirated copy is a lost sale...but somewhere in there is lost revenue. There's other costs to piracy too, like bad cracks that make people think a game is buggy, and support costs to pirates (estimated at 30% by many devs...that's money directly out of their pockets!).

That's what I'm talking about.

Naivete, tsk tsk

[Merzeal]

I've bought many games I have pirated as well, so thanks. I'm glad you guys white knighted that so hard.

I didn't make up an excuse, I just stated it as it is. Do I think it hurts companies? Yes, I said that. Thanks for taking context quotes and using them against me.

Using real life examples in comparison to 1s and 0s is horrible logic, as well.

I am just stating that pirates aren't the super killer most bad companies that release garbage, make them out to be. Come on, how many ways can you spin an FPS, RPG, etc. etc? Most games on the market are stagnant, and I trash 90% of what I download because they are garbage.

Lol @ blaming crack teams on bugs. Remember Fallout 3? A crack team fixed a major bug in the game, faulty logic on that end too.

Spending 50 dollars on a non-refundable game that burns 2 hours after 5 hours of getting it to work AS INTENDED is not a solid return.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying most companies need to step it up. After playing FPS V.32184923, or SUPERRPG 213487, the gaming industry has me jaded. GG @ more fun with flash based browser games recently.

[Renevent]

At the end of the day, there is absolutely no excuse for taking what's not yours, that's what you're missing.

So what if it's not as bad as some companies make it out to be...does that negate it's actual effect? Does that mean it's not actually hurting the wonderful people who make these games for us to enjoy?

And yes, there are many bad cracks. I can think of tons of games that had incomplete cracks that actually caused bugs. Only later is another version released that fixes it.

"Using real life examples in comparison to 1s and 0s is horrible logic, as well. "

Actually it's not, those examples are EXACTLY the same, and are covered under many of the same laws. ;)

Let me ask you something...if you had kids would you teach them to steal games off of torrents? Is that something you would encourage?

And like I said, I'm no white knight, I don't care that you steal people's hard work, I'm just tired of the excuses.

[Merzeal]

I'm not missing anything. You're just too dead set into the silly capitalist belief that you shouldn't have things if you can't afford them.

To be honest, I flat out said I wanted to support this project, and I only do that for things that I think have real potential.

To be honest, yes, lost profit sucks, but stealing has always been an issue as long as we have attached values to objects. This game is especially appealing as it has a low price point and looks like it will be worth the value. Sorry I value my fiat currency more, I have higher standards.

PS: I'm TOTALLY self-validating my reasoning for piracy at this moment. Not really though.

Also note, I love the whole "mommy credit card" thing, that's too funny. The presumption on your end makes me laugh so hard.

[Renevent]

You're just too dead set into the silly capitalist belief that you shouldn't have things if you can't afford them.

Ya, silly me.

You should kiss our capitalist butts for all this nice stuff you get to steal ;)

[VeggieBoy]

Want to know something? I've never, not once, illegally downloaded music, movies, games, books, or anything else. Could I have saved money and effort along the way? Yes. But I couldn't have saved my conscience.

And that is the problem, people don't have a conscience.

I trash 90% of what I download because they are garbage.
I think Renevent has this covered, but there is absolutely no reason to steal.

With companies tanking left and right, your logic just makes me feel sympathetic for you and thousands of others.

[Renevent]

Anyways, I'll just stop there...I've been through enough of these discussion to know nobody will change their perception on this topic. You either one day mature past your own selfishness, or you delude yourself into justifying poor behavior.

[Merzeal]

Define companies. If you're talking about in general, there is far more than piracy at work, and you're silly to neglect the grand scheme. Companies tank because they are insolvent, and because the competition is too large most of the time. (Retail, etc.)

Saying "capitalists" are the only reason media gets put out is also a very narrow sighted opinion. Mod communities make AMAZING content as a labor of "passion / love" or whatever. I'm also sure the free music / movies (some of which is better than mainstream BS) are really "capitalist" related. Freeware also comes to mind.

Edit: I'm also done. I'm set in my ways, and sometimes when I actually have the money, I put it into the economic machine. However, I also value things differently.

Edit 2: I love how it's because I'm selfish. Haha.

[zidders]

I never meant for this thread to become one where the whole piracy debate would end up (once again) causing folks on both sides of the issue to claim some kind of superiority over anyone, morally or otherwise.

The fact is, I was merely speaking for myself. Not anyone else. I wasn't being judgemental of those who do pirate software, nor was I trying to encourage it. I was merely apologising to the folks who worked hard on Titan Quest. I've done so, gotten a response, i'm happy.

While it may be possible to have a debate on piracy that doesn't end up with some of the people in the thread coming down on other folks in the thread for whatever reason, I rarely see it happen. It usually goes the same route as discussions on politics or religion.

If it would be possible, could someone please lock this thread? I apologise (something I seem to be doing a lot lately) for causing anyone to come down on anyone else for any reason. This should be a forum where people can share their love of arpg's and contribute thoughts and ideas on how to make Grim Dawn the best game it can be...NOT be a place where people come down on or judge each other.

I should have just sent a PM.

[VeggieBoy]

I am morally superior. No need to make claims as it is a fact.

Its not my fault Merzeal is spewing false insane justifications.

Thank goodness I've been granted with the ability to afford to spend 20-60 bucks for a game.