Game Length

[Betrayer]

I just wanted to discuss what I thought was TQ's fatal flaw (not that it wasn't awesome).
The game was way, way, WAY too long for this type of game.
It really discouraged trying new builds and even simply finishing the game was an epic quest that I think a very small percentage actually achieved.

I also think the whole game suffered for it's ambition and length.
What would be ideal for TQ in retrospect would be to condense all the huge amount of content into a 10 hour game. There would be so much variety in the environments and monsters and replayability.
What ended up happening was all the environments lasted literally about 5x longer than it felt they should, which gave the player more than enough time to get bored.
What could have been a dense and jam-packed experience, was spread as thin as possible to pad the game length unnecessarily.

It's just my opinion but I feel a short game is not only not a detriment, but is in fact ideal in a genre where randomness and replayability are paramount.

[Scryer]

I think if they make variations in the environment from time to time it will lessen the effect of feeling like you've been playing the same area forever.

It might feel better to the player if instead of having a 3 hour wood-land play through, you see a mix of vegetation, destruction, desolation, meadow, and other environments.

For those 3 hours you now have a mix of scenery, rather then stuff that looks exactly the same.

Maybe also by putting in something the player can interact with sometimes. Like an NPC.

Small things in your path of destruction that add to the sense of progression and fun.

I know how much it sucks looking at the same thing for hours on end.

[medierra]

I agree TQ drags on in areas. We definitely want to refine the experience and accelerate the pace with GD. Honestly though, we don't have the time to build such a massive game anyway.

It's kind of funny but I think I'd prefer to replay a shorter game more than I'd want to slog through twice as many hours of unique gameplay to finish a game once. I even feel that way about D2. I've finished countless replays of the game with dozens of different characters on multiple difficulties but there are times when I get to Act3 and just feel like "oh god... not this place again". Same with the arcane sanctuary...

Unfortunately with TQ I feel that way immediately when I go to run through Greece again.

[Betrayer]

Thanks for the response Medierra; I agree!


@ Scryer

Indeed, but my point is it doesn't need to be that long, in fact I would argue that it shouldn't be that long. When you have a near limitless number of classes to play and a game that encourages replayability with random loot etc., making the game too long fights directly with those points.

When I'm less than half way through TQ I find myself pining for a new build that I want to try out, but I want to finish the game at least. Unfortunately that means, 30 more hours of trudging through with my character. And forget the harder game modes. Such a small percentage of people would play through the long campaign and then want to play through it all with the same character again... TWICE even.
Of course, I'm not advocating dumbing the game down to reach a wider audience, but I think there is a very good reason only the most hardcore TQ addicts would ever make it that far.

[ASYLUM101]

Lol, Medierra, I feel the same way when I hit act3. I can't stand that forest place, it just SUCKS. Arcane Sanctuary... I like it. I like the chaotic feel of that place.

[yerkyerk]

The main drag in D2 - I found the jail and cellar levels in Act 1 a complete turn-off. 5-6 huge areas, looking very similar, no variation and no way to know where you should go next.
The jungle at least looked pretty and had funny-looking enemies.

For TQ, these drags seemed to be less. The environment looked better and there was a bigger variety in enemies. The only thing I really hated going through in TQ were the minoan labyrinths. I guess I'm not too big a fan of indoor area's..

[Renevent]

10 hours sounds pretty short...but yeah...agree with your main assessment. Some of the areas in TQ could have been condensed or shortened. It's not a s bad as DII, but there were a few areas I didn't look forward too. Like yerkyerk already mentioned, the labyrinth wasn't my favorite area. Also, the swamp in act IV and I really dreaded going through the tower of judgement. I felt Act 3 drags on too much too in general especially around the forested areas.

But let me also give an idea of the areas I liked most...

-Area outside medusa

-Athenian battle grounds

-Area in Act IV that's between dark and light (what a really cool effect)

-Climbing the mountain in Act 3 (great sense of getting higher in elevation)

[eisprinzessin]

I think TQ has a lot of meaningless fighting, which can get boring. A better level design would help here ... regardless of the world's size.
When I'm less than half way through TQ I find myself pining for a new build that I want to try out, but I want to finish the game at least.I feel the same. Throwing in some ideas:
- Let the world grow from normal to epic and from epic to legendary mode. Unlock some dungeons or even whole areas on higher levels only.
- Make side quests for epic and legendary mode only.
- Even the main quest could expand from mode to mode.

[starkaas]

I think TQ has a lot of meaningless fighting, which can get boring. A better level design would help here ... regardless of the world's size.
I feel the same. Throwing in some ideas:
- Let the world grow from normal to epic and from epic to legendary mode. Unlock some dungeons or even whole areas on higher levels only.
- Make side quests for epic and legendary mode only.
- Even the main quest could expand from mode to mode.

I think that this is some of the best ideas I have heard for this type of game. I'm always trying to get people to play up to hard difficulties as the loot is always of higher quality. Having incentives like the world grows in areas and quests as the difficulty increases is a fantastic idea in my opinion.

[MadWasp]

I just wanted to discuss what I thought was TQ's fatal flaw (not that it wasn't awesome).
The game was way, way, WAY too long for this type of game.
It really discouraged trying new builds and even simply finishing the game was an epic quest that I think a very small percentage actually achieved.

I also think the whole game suffered for it's ambition and length.
What would be ideal for TQ in retrospect would be to condense all the huge amount of content into a 10 hour game. There would be so much variety in the environments and monsters and replayability.
What ended up happening was all the environments lasted literally about 5x longer than it felt they should, which gave the player more than enough time to get bored.
What could have been a dense and jam-packed experience, was spread as thin as possible to pad the game length unnecessarily.

It's just my opinion but I feel a short game is not only not a detriment, but is in fact ideal in a genre where randomness and replayability are paramount.

Heey, a real TQ fan doesn't say "the game is way too long".

Low budget, low quality games are short. Nobody told you should play HQ game like TQ.

Torchlight is 4 Ya then... Short, boring, and primitively simplificied...

(I didn't want to offend you...excuse me.):cool:


Well, i read through you all and watched I offend you all include medierra too
Anyway I liked long playtime and wide and massive variety of H&S. That's why I love TQ.
I'm sad because I'm full alone minority with this honest and clean idea.

[An7hraX]

I agree TQ drags on in areas. We definitely want to refine the experience and accelerate the pace with GD. Honestly though, we don't have the time to build such a massive game anyway.

It's kind of funny but I think I'd prefer to replay a shorter game more than I'd want to slog through twice as many hours of unique gameplay to finish a game once. I even feel that way about D2. I've finished countless replays of the game with dozens of different characters on multiple difficulties but there are times when I get to Act3 and just feel like "oh god... not this place again". Same with the arcane sanctuary...

Unfortunately with TQ I feel that way immediately when I go to run through Greece again.

Yeah thank goodness for the loopholes in act 3 so that you can rush yourself through it with someone who has the last 2 WPs.

Someone mentioned different scenery and I think that it's an almost perfect statement. You can create the same epic sized world we saw in Titan Quest, just break the areas down, for example for it's size Greece can easily be two different acts instead of 1.


That being said I liked arcane sanctuary, yes it was long especially if you and your party weren't strong enough to separate and go in different directions. But that being said it looked so unique and it was designed like no other dungeon, so that made it a lot less tedious than Act 3.

[Darkruin]

I think TQ has a lot of meaningless fighting, which can get boring. A better level design would help here ... regardless of the world's size.
I feel the same. Throwing in some ideas:
- Let the world grow from normal to epic and from epic to legendary mode. Unlock some dungeons or even whole areas on higher levels only.
- Make side quests for epic and legendary mode only.
- Even the main quest could expand from mode to mode.

Awesome idea! I couldn't agree more! I enjoyed killing the few unlocked beasts in epic and legendary modes in TQ but it just left me wishing there was more.

[eisprinzessin]

Thank you, starkaas and Darkruin ... well, this can turn out to be a great incentive to replay the game on higher modes ... but it needs to be communicated, that epic and legendary have much more content. Otherwise it will result in a lot of frustrated casual gamers, who wonder why the game is so short.

[Chameleon]

I'm leaning towards having a shorter more distilled and intense gaming experience with GD.

As someone else suggested you could make each difficulty level open up more sidequests/side areas. It would make it faster to get to Legendary and gives you more motivation and reason to get to Legendary and subsequently more fun once you got there as you would get new experiences only found there.

[subshape]

Sorry for the thread hijack:
Act 3 was an abomination. I hate those stupid blow dart ass clowns. I can promise you we will have NOTHING as stupid and retarded as that. OMG just thinking about Act 3 is pissing me off. Although, one area i DID like in Act 3 was the final battle area. Mephisto's area was AWESOME and I liked searching for the tome or whatever it was in the ancient ruins.
However, leading up to that was just the worst.
B

[medierra]

Well, I'd keep in mind that the game won't be short, just the first installment will be. Basically we don't have the budget to make enough content for a full-length game as our first release. So, instead, we're doing it in installments and using the profit from the first to help fund the next. Think of it like we're currently making Greece.

The swamp wasn't bad as a sorceress where you could teleport across the river and frozen orb everything to death in one shot. It was unbelievably frustrating as a melee character though where you constantly had to chase around after little enemies that were constantly fleeing, individually posed no threat, and were totally unsatisfying to kill. After my hundred-thousandth or so sorceress build I started playing paladin and druid a lot. With those classes I'd just run through the swamp ignoring most of the enemies if I could because I hated fighting them so much.

[Roros]

What I disliked the most about act3 was getting lost and the amount of backtracking you had to do to check the other path in a fork. Especially in a multiplayer game which usually races along, the start of act3 is where everything may or may not come to a complete screeching halt as we run around looking for the one path we missed.

[Renevent]

I just hope you guys make it feel like a full game. Torchlight probably has the same amount of actual content Greece did...but they made it in such a way that it could stand alone.

[eisprinzessin]

Act 3 was an abomination.I just thought: "WTF is wrong with the Orient?" :confused: ... well, as it turns out, I never played Diabolo ;)

I just hope you guys make it feel like a full game.

Well, I'd keep in mind that the game won't be short, just the first installment will be.

I'm looking forward to a nice cliffhanger.

I wonder how leveling will work with multiple installments. How will our epic and legendary toons fit into the next installment? Can we continue on the same mode? If quests of the new content provide us with bonus health, skill and attributes points, then we will only benefit from them, if we complete quests on lower modes, won't we?

[Roland]

I personally like a "full" sized game, the greater the variety of areas the better...I'm not one that likes to have every stone and bush memorized ;)

I like how TQ:IT also built in a somewhat random mob placement for areas that you travel through again and again. Not that I've farmed much but upon occasion it's been nice to have the spawns mixed up and not completely static.

For me and my play style TQ & the Expansion make pretty much the perfect length for a ARPG.

But I understand the economy of need and the plans for episodic release.

"Lots of little things combine to form one BIG thing" :)

[mamba]

I wonder how leveling will work with multiple installments. How will our epic and legendary toons fit into the next installment? Can we continue on the same mode? If quests of the new content provide us with bonus health, skill and attributes points, then we will only benefit from them, if we complete quests on lower modes, won't we?

Obviously it is not as easy as having one huge game right away, but I think it will be similar to how it was done with TQ -> IT.

By finishing the original game in one difficulty, you gain access to the next higher difficulty but can go back to lower ones as well.

When an expansion comes around, you can continue in any unlocked difficulty wherever you currently are. For finished difficulties this means right before the new content (unless you are reborn someplace else due to farming).

You can then finish the new content in any difficulty to get the additional skill points and some XP, the amount of XP will be rather limited though as your level is too high for it to still have much of an effect on the lower difficulties.

[shawnmck]

Medierra:

I am curious.....what if a Publisher were to express the desire to fund Grim Dawn....
Would you accept the offer, or decline it ?

The reason I ask is because I know how money is tight right now for you guys, and you are making the game short at first (just to get it out), with the intention of releasing further installments or expansions down the road.
But if a Publisher were to fund you, would that make it easier for you as a company, or is it not worth it (considering what happened at Iron Lore) ?

Would you prefer to remain independant, or would you prefer to have the financial backing of a publisher ?

:confused:

[Starkrun]

Torchlights main campaign feels good, its about 35 floors and it takes a good amount of time if you do all the random side quests and hit some random dungeon spawns from maps you buy. It felt like i got my moneys worth.

Then the Shadow Vault kicks in, a random dungeon with near infinite levels and the monsters are a full random spawn pattern with random tile-set and the mobs scale with you.

I felt even without the Shadow Vault i got my $20 worth... but the SV made it beyond anything i can imagine. in replay value. (on a side note im making a gunslinger class based of the Dark Tower books for fun)

Will installment #1 have about 35 levels of fun with some form of randomization (be it monsters or random areas or difficulty) to keep it fresh and give us something to get lost int until the next installment?

[medierra]

Medierra:

I am curious.....what if a Publisher were to express the desire to fund Grim Dawn....
Would you accept the offer, or decline it ?

Would you prefer to remain independant, or would you prefer to have the financial backing of a publisher ?

:confused:

We would definitely prefer to have some publisher funding if the deal were structured in an acceptable way and allowed us to retain ownership of Grim Dawn and didn't impose stupid shit on us like DRM. Having some outside funding would allow us to do a lot more with the initial release, get it done faster, and probably do a better job. It would also be a lot less stressful.

However, we feel it is critical that we hold onto the rights to the game for the benefit of both Crate and our audience. At Iron Lore, since THQ owned the rights to TQ, when they decided they weren't interested in a TQ2, we couldn't just go pitch the game to other publishers. We had to start from scratch and try to create a totally new game to pitch elsewhere. It also made it more difficult for us to release patches and even share information about the game with the fans.

Fortunately, with Grim Dawn, since we've gotten so far in development on our own and don't absolutely need publisher money, it gives us a lot more negotiating leverage. I think it is possible that we could end up signing a deal with a smaller publisher where we retain ownership of the game and control of digital distribution but grant them boxed-retail distribution rights in exchange for an advance on royalties to help finish up development.

We also wouldn't really want to turn this into a giant TQ-scope project. TQ cost way too much to develop given what the market is now. I think the smaller initial release we're shooting for is good. The problem is that the more funding you use to build the game - the more sales you need to make and the longer it takes before you start to see revenue. We don't want to spend several million dollars making the game and then go out of business in the 8 months it takes after release before the game becomes profitable and royalties start coming in.

A few small publishers have expressed interest in the retail distribution rights for GD. We're not rushing into anything though and right now we're just focusing on development. But who knows what the future may hold. I know a lot of fans would love to be able to buy a boxed version and we certainly wouldn't mind some additional funding if the terms are right.

[Llama8]

A few small publishers have expressed interest in the retail distribution rights for GD.

That's nice to know, as is that you're not rushing into anything.

[Starkrun]

Fortunately, with Grim Dawn, since we've gotten so far in development on our own and don't absolutely need publisher money, it gives us a lot more negotiating leverage. I think it is possible that we could end up signing a deal with a smaller publisher where we retain ownership of the game and control of digital distribution but grant them boxed-retail distribution rights in exchange for an advance on royalties to help finish up development.

We also wouldn't really want to turn this into a giant TQ-scope project. TQ cost way too much to develop given what the market is now. I think the smaller initial release we're shooting for is good. The problem is that the more funding you use to build the game - the more sales you need to make and the longer it takes before you start to see revenue. We don't want to spend several million dollars making the game and then go out of business in the 8 months it takes after release before the game becomes profitable and royalties start coming in.

A few small publishers have expressed interest in the retail distribution rights for GD. We're not rushing into anything though and right now we're just focusing on development. But who knows what the future may hold. I know a lot of fans would love to be able to buy a boxed version and we certainly wouldn't mind some additional funding if the terms are right.

You finally have it right :We don't want to spend several million dollars making the game and then go out of business in the 8 months it takes after release before the game becomes profitable and royalties start coming in.

Thank you for thinking, the entire team... to often great ideas are lost due to bad choices and lateral thinking.

As for a boxed copy, Encore and Strategy First have no issues with releasing DRM free games... i would shop Encore though, every title I've ever gotten form them work perfectly. Also Enlight (ES Enlight) is a nice little box distributor as well. There a touch on the ADD side with there selection but most are anyways right? They also have many DRM free titles.

The smaller release makes sense when you put it that way (above) have the game in its gold version and shop around and show them that you mean business. I'm sure you'll have other secret assets to show them what could have been with more financial backing.

As for the future, I still have Black Legion swirling around in my dreams. Im a patient man, I'm still waiting for DNF and the new game from People Can Fly. I can wait how ever long it takes for Black Legion.

[Void(null)]

Purely out of curiosity and if you would rather not answer i totally understand but:

What is the estimated cost of Grim Dawns Budget, and how much did you manage to cover from pre sales VS personal investment?

The only reason I ask is because I really like the business model you guys used, it seems like a really great way for an indie company to work within the industry without having to whore themselves to a publisher and sign their soul away.

Also, how much does owning your own engine help in cutting down costs?

There are only around 70 commercial game engines in existence and around 20 or so that are in common use, so I would think owning one of those must be a massive boon.

[Llama8]

What is the estimated cost of Grim Dawns Budget, and how much did you manage to cover from pre sales VS personal investment?

IIRC, Medierra said that the "pre-sales" was a small fraction of the total cost.

Also, how much does owning your own engine help in cutting down costs?
I imagine that having worked with & developed the engine in the first place over several years probably helps quite a lot cutting down dev time.

As for a boxed copy, Encore and Strategy First have no issues with releasing DRM free games... i would shop Encore though, every title I've ever gotten form them work perfectly.
Encore weren't very good with the release of Sacred 1/Underworld, though that was a good ~5-7 years ago.

[Batman]

To get back on topic........

I like the way that, in Sacred 2, you can spend 10 hours and complete a difficulty or spend those 10 hours and never get out of the first area.
It gives me, the player, the option to play the way I feel like at that moment.

Gamer freedom. Something we don't get a lot of. Even TQ was so linear I never felt as though I was in control of the gameplay. Rather, the game was telling me how to play.

[medierra]

What is the estimated cost of Grim Dawns Budget, and how much did you manage to cover from pre sales VS personal investment?

Well, given the way we are currently operating, the cost is difficult to estimate since we are using a lot of "sweat equity". So, in terms of dollars spent, our investment isn't that great. In terms of unpaid work though, it is quite significant. It will probably be somewhere in the range of $750 to $1m if we finish up the project without any outside funding. Then on top of that there is actual money being spent on outsourcing, software / hardware, licenses, legal fees, etc. Pre-sales to date only equal about 2-3% of my estimation for the total project cost in both money and unpaid work assuming no outside funding.


The only reason I ask is because I really like the business model you guys used, it seems like a really great way for an indie company to work within the industry without having to whore themselves to a publisher and sign their soul away.

Also, how much does owning your own engine help in cutting down costs?


I don't think this is really a viable business model for most companies. Unless you have a bunch of people who can support themselves without an income or on a partial income for a year or two / people willing to put in ridiculous part-time hours after their normal jobs and some private capital to cover outsourcing and various other costs, this wouldn't really be possible.

It also wouldn't be possible for us without the ILE engine and tools. The real value is that it isn't just an engine, it is also all of the gameplay / feature programming. If we didn't have that, even with a free to use engine, we'd still need to hire a bunch of programmers to implement all of the gameplay / features. We also would have a big lead-time until that work was done before we could even really start putting the game together.

Without the ILE technology we would have had to either pack up and find jobs elsewhere or planned a much smaller project. Maybe something for XBLA would have been possible if we'd gotten an indie license for a commercial engine and planned a game that would require very few art assets.

[Void(null)]

Wow, so really this is you guys putting aside all your spare time, living off ramen noodles and putting in a couple of years of your life into a protect unpaid, while taking great personal risk.

It really doesn't get more indie than that.

I kind of feel like I want to do something more to help out now. At the very least send you guys some home made cookies. Nothing says "We appreciate what you're doing" better than baked goods.

[Llama8]

I kind of feel like I want to do something more to help out now. At the very least send you guys some home made cookies. Nothing says "We appreciate what you're doing" better than baked goods.

Personally I think that a ####-load of cash tends to go down fairly well as well (though possibly not quite as well as freshly baked cookies/cakes/etc).

[Fortuitous]

Is it so difficult to find a decent publisher that you pretty much have to fund yourself?

I'm a bit disappointed that the game will come out in installments, but that is mostly due to my impatient nature. It is the same reason I dislike book series where you need to take a break for a year before the next installment is written by the author, only you can't be bothered reading the first again to remember where you were up to.

People do comparisons with Diablo 2, but in my opinion Titan quest was superior from the get go, a good part due to the unique and varied environments. The random nature of the maps in Diablo 2 grew repetitive and boring quickly not helped by their blandness; I did not put anywhere near as many hours into that game as I did with Titan quest. Baldur's Gate 2, one of my most favourite games of all time was released at a similar time to Diablo 2 and well...ok it's completely different to ARPG's, but the varied hand built environments were beautiful and interesting which led me to finish the game multiple times (hundreds of hours).

I Think Act 3 & 4 in Titan quest Immortal throne were some of the most stunning visually and most interesting, look at act 3; Babylon Hanging gardens, Snow capped peaks (I loved how you see the subtle changes from alpine to snow), great wall, chinese villages, bamboo forests, hilly peaks, swamps, it's visual ecstacy. Act 4 also has much variety from beaches, to forests, war torn cities and hades itself isn't just a massive boring cave, it's changing all the time from river styx with it's strangely fascinating flora, the plains of judgement with their boiling geological anomolies and the massive dramatic architecture of Hades palace.

Torchlight visuals are ok, but not spectacular, just check out the detail of the armour and weapons in Titan Quest, they look far more spectacular then Torchlight (I remember one of my swords being made of some transparent crystal...I held onto that for a while)...I find it near impossible to locate low-res textures where I could find these easily in games like Dragon Age Origins or the Mass Effect series.

Overall I think Greece and Egypt to a lesser degree, did not have the same variety as the following acts and I'm curious to see if other people felt that way.

Something that was in my mind with extending gameplay in the original Titan quest (as my friend and myself had exhausted the game a bit) without spending too much design effort would be to unlock new areas on following playthroughs to create more of an incentive to play through subsequent levels of difficulty.

[Starkrun]

Diablo 2 had these command line parameters:

-act1 for a new level 1 character in Act 1.
-act2 for a new level 16 character in Act 2.
-act3 for a new level 21 character in Act 3.
-act4 for a new level 27 character in Act 4.
-act5 for a new level 33 character in Act 5.

If titans Quest had the same ones with a preleveled blank stat/skill toon at the basic level. That could have really breathed live into the game for multiple playthoughs.

[Drogirant]

The swamp wasn't bad as a sorceress where you could teleport across the river and frozen orb everything to death in one shot. It was unbelievably frustrating as a melee character though where you constantly had to chase around after little enemies that were constantly fleeing, individually posed no threat, and were totally unsatisfying to kill. After my hundred-thousandth or so sorceress build I started playing paladin and druid a lot. With those classes I'd just run through the swamp ignoring most of the enemies if I could because I hated fighting them so much.


This is exactly how I felt when I first entered Act IV in IT, running around chasing for those little annoying frogs which I was hoping never to see again once in the Underworld, but hey we got pale ones, and those little demons that attacked the city in Epeiros. :mad: Machae were very deadly at first until I discovered how frail they were and susceptible to kiting, herding and then throwing an AoE nuke at em, if you have one that is. :)

[MadWasp]

My favourite part was in TQ:IT just right before river styx (The bank of the river)

That was so gritty and underworld atmosphere.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think first initial GD release contains Act I maybe I+II. As medierra said earlier.
Because of lack of time/money/designer. (approximately 10 hours clean main story playtime+some more with side quests)

that's not too much. Anyway We hope continous dlc's. If we want a level 200 player character feed with contents...

Also hope people will love this new dark story and feelin' and thousands (maybe millions) will buy this beatuful h'n's. So Crate can improve and invest more time/money/devs to maintain fanbase.

[Chameleon]

Been playing TQ again...TQ feels way to long and drags on and on while you are trying to get to Legendary difficulty, but it doesn't feel long enough once you get there. Does that make sense? lol

[Gem]

Long becouse "very long walk". Labyrint, Silk road - boring places. Prefer stack 166% running speed than explore these areas

[MadWasp]

Long becouse "very long walk". Labyrint, Silk road - boring places. Prefer stack 166% running speed than explore these areas

I think labirinth and minotaurus mini-boss is very important mytologichal part of TQ. It fits very well to greek atmosphere.


I enjoyed greek environment(a little darker i think) more than far east childish tiger like(more cartoonish) area.

All in all greek, aegypt, underworld were my favourites throughout the whole TQ:IT.

These were just my private opinions. Different man different taste...

[deimos]

Not a single part in TQ truly bores me, even after dozens if not a hundred runs through the game. I still explore every part of the map, clearing every corner from the maps black shroud. Particularly Orient and Hades never manage to wear me down despite Orient being the more "happy" place. Starting from Helos tends to get a little old nowadays though. ;)

But i'm a hopeless case with too much time on my hands most of the time anyway. I'm not giving up until TQ Collector gives me 100% on all items found.

To me TQ:IT is about the proper length for such a game, but having something shorter doesn't mean it's worse, after all it's the content that matters the most. Certainly the more empty areas of TQ (coastlines, the alternate path to Fayum in act 2 etc.) could be shorter without any ill effect.

And yes, please capture the Hades atmosphere into Grim Dawn, cold and dark and... grim. :)

[Gem]

I agree, it is very important part, when i travel to Krit, i already knew that it must be Minotaur. It fits to greek atmosphere more than telkhins :D
First time i was surprised that it is not final boss.
But Labyrinth was too long. First time finding path took about 3 hours or more.I think better something like spiral:
http://podrobnosti.ua/upload/news/2009/10/16/636935_3.jpg

[MadWasp]

I agree, it is very important part, when i travel to Krit, i already knew that it must be Minotaur. It fits to greek atmosphere more than telkhins :D
First time i was surprised that it is not final boss.
But Labyrinth was too long. First time finding path took about 3 hours or more.I think better something like spiral:
http://podrobnosti.ua/upload/news/2009/10/16/636935_3.jpg

That's why it's labyrinth. :)

[RedEye]

First heard of GrimDawn about 4 days ago and needless to say was over the moon. TQ was a truly amazing game.

The whole real life based mythology is what made TQ the game it is. The kind of stories we'd all get giddy about as kids! Its a shame it all came to such an abrupt end. I would have loved to see further expansions exploring south american mythology, europe etc...

Contrary to what others have been saying I really enjoyed China and felt it had the most potential, but I felt it lacked the dedication of Greece at a design level. The Great Wall was far too short (maybe because its perceived as linear) but the reality is it peels of in so many directions. I also think some of the emperors tombs should have been explorable as well... al la valley of the kings. Aesthetically, Orient was miles ahead.

Never at any point did I feel the game was too long winded, mundane or boring.

[Spoon of Doom]

Never at any point did I feel the game was too long winded, mundane or boring.

I can only agree with this.

Okay, except maybe for the hanging gardens. I don't really like that area too much, though I can't really say why.

[paulg568]

Never at any point did I feel the game was too long winded, mundane or boring.

I also must agree with this. There are only so many good ARPG's out there. Its nice to finish a game but if it is made well you want it to keep going. I enjoyed torchlight but within like 3 days I had explored every area and beaten the game and had no more difficulties to run through(it was way to short). In Titan Quest, there were so many side quests, extra dungeons, hidden features in later difficulties, and felt like a good length.

I already know you plan on making GD much shorter due to cost and development time, but I have faith it will be excellent and know you will put out expansions.

[ASYLUM101]

I gotta admit, sometimes when I go back and play TQ, I find quests I haven't done before. The other day I finally figured out how to use the sun key and the moon key in Soronis, I was so excited, lol. It was like finding a hidden expansion!

[mamba]

But Labyrinth was too long. First time finding path took about 3 hours or more.

Seriously ? It is not even a real maze, plus you have a map.... anything beyond one hour is not understandable to me - and that is making sure you go everywhere and kill everything. Just running through it (never tried) should be < 10 minutes.

As to game length, I know this one will be shorted than TQ, but I hope it is at least as long as Greece + Egypt combined (but more varied).

To me, TQ was not too long. Sure there are some areas that are somewhat repetetive in landscape and enemies, so you could make some areas slightly shorter, but the overall game should not have been shorter, just somewhat more varied ;)

[ASYLUM101]

I believe they said it would be the length of Greece alone with the initial release.

Keep in mind though, there will be multiple difficulties for each so that should provide an almost equal game-time to TQ on one difficulty, not to mention Crate hopes to release DLC areas and stuff. :)

Also; most people find TQ long because they don't like repeating the game for several difficulties. To conquer a single difficulty takes maybe one, two sittings? I know I usually get through Greece/Egypt in one playthrough, probably 6 hours for Greece alone and an hour or two for egypt. Another 2 or 3 hours for Orient, then the expansion is another long one, probably the final 4-5 hours. Not TOO long (reminiscing on some older RPGs, Legend of Dragoon and stuff, takes WEEKS to beat) but long enough to enjoy thoroughly and replay multiple times.

[Renevent]

They also said it will be more dynamic...so while the content won't be as expansive as TQ, it will be very replayable.

[Mind Dragon]

I didnt have a problem with the length of TQ. Some areas like babylon gardens I didnt like too much.

Since we like ARPGs here...

Some things that make an 'area' too long:

Lack of visual variety of the environment.

Lack of different enemy types or too many of the same type (TQ Satyrs vs Fate)

Dull or dislikable environments, enemy appearance or animation (S2 enemies).

Lack of different setups of enemy groups with environment that affect the encounter. Also, enemies without skills or tactics (for example, melee and ranged only).

Lack of emotional feel or mood. (Yet, some moods, like breaths, can only be held so long.)

Skill point gains are only used to keep current skills on par with enemy level. No new skills are acquired and there is no increase of effect on encounters.

Inability to feel successful in encounters. You take hits; they take hits. You prevail but there was no way to avoid damage. ...And you are either in no danger (most of the time) or the game has ramped up the damage so the timing of gulping health potions is important or bad circumstance and/or dice rolls sends you to respawn.

Areas that are really too big like the swamp in S2.

--Summary--

Time flies when you are having fun -- but you can still make it too big if you try. Fun is in the sights (sounds) and the action with tactics. We like these games. So, longer is better than shorter. If an area is bigger, changes are still needed but within.

If something seems too long, it might be because it isnt fun. If so, somehow that has to be addressed. Starting a new area or ending the game doesnt seem to resolve the issue (for long:)).

[Mind Dragon]

The first time through TQ, greece seemed like an epic journey. You were still learning some of the skills and may had some points spread out into different skills. I dont know if too long was noticable then.

After several replays, it seems greece could have been shortened by a screen or two here and there but I dont know of any area that I would remove completely.

[myrmidon]

i actualy loved the gameleangth in titanquest! it was perfect. diablo2 was w/e dint bother me that it was short. and greed man that game was to good to be short i want to play more greed and the ending was tempting to play more! so i liked the gameleangth in tq.

[TECHNOmancer]

Never at any point did I feel the game was too long winded, mundane or boring.

Several of us agree with this quote, myself included.

I thought that getting through Greece on normal difficulty took a relatively long time because of low run speed and limited DPS. Bear in mind that you were taking a neophyte hero through his or her first paces.

So many of the areas in all Acts showed considerable attention to detail and artistic flourish. For all of the times that I've been through areas -- given my stable of 38 characters (one of each class, as well as two duplicates) -- I remain impressed with the Athenian Battleground, the tombs in the Valley of Kings, the view from the Jade Palace, and the otherworldy beauty of the interior of the Tower of Judgment. There are, of course, many more examples than these.

I would venture to guess that many of us continue to play TQ regularly, myself included (again). I foresee an enjoyable crisis of time management in my gaming future: Of GD and TQ, how much time am I going to devote to each?

I've said it many times but it bears repeating yet again: Thanks to all of the people who had a hand in delivering a superb product and a very memorable experience! I am enthralled by TQ and can't wait to see GD realized!

TECHNOmancer

[subshape]

I also must agree with this. There are only so many good ARPG's out there. Its nice to finish a game but if it is made well you want it to keep going. I enjoyed torchlight but within like 3 days I had explored every area and beaten the game and had no more difficulties to run through(it was way to short). In Titan Quest, there were so many side quests, extra dungeons, hidden features in later difficulties, and felt like a good length.

I already know you plan on making GD much shorter due to cost and development time, but I have faith it will be excellent and know you will put out expansions.

Don't forget that unlike TL you'll have more class options to try out and master. Plus, you'll be able to play with a friend! Nothing bugs me more than a single player ONLY ARPG...i mean seriously if I can't show off my cool loot, or 'ninja loot' that item from my buddy why even bother playing?
B

[myrmidon]

is grimdawn gonna be shorter then greed?

[medierra]

is grimdawn gonna be shorter then greed?

I haven't played through Greed, so I can't really answer this question.

[Renevent]

Well after playing Loki I think there's something to a shorter game with higher quality areas and more re-playability :D

[myrmidon]

I haven't played through Greed, so I can't really answer this question.

did you like greed?if so you should it has a good ending!

[medierra]

did you like greed?if so you should it has a good ending!

It was ok but I just don't have a lot of time for much else besides GD these days and there wasn't anything about Greed that made me REALLY want to go back to it.

[mamba]

Well after playing Loki I think there's something to a shorter game with higher quality areas and more re-playability :D

LOL, Loki length did not really matter to me, I gave up after 1.5 regions, it was just unbearably bad (I hated it from the very beginning but wanted to give it a fair try... in the end I went back to TQ as I enjoyed my 7th or 8th char there more than my 1st in Loki)

[all_zebest]

I just wanted to discuss what I thought was TQ's fatal flaw (not that it wasn't awesome).
The game was way, way, WAY too long for this type of game.
It really discouraged trying new builds and even simply finishing the game was an epic quest that I think a very small percentage actually achieved.

I also think the whole game suffered for it's ambition and length.
What would be ideal for TQ in retrospect would be to condense all the huge amount of content into a 10 hour game. There would be so much variety in the environments and monsters and replayability.
What ended up happening was all the environments lasted literally about 5x longer than it felt they should, which gave the player more than enough time to get bored.
What could have been a dense and jam-packed experience, was spread as thin as possible to pad the game length unnecessarily.

Hello.
Have you played Loki ? A good game but far toooooo long (3 times longer than Titan Quest!) and I know nobody who finished it completely (i.e. who finished it three times in order to get the full ending). As for me, I havn't even seen the last boss.

[trantor]

I have it, but left if long ago in the middle of the 1st act. The skills were not much interactive or fun, just slight increases in the stats. There was not dynamism in the playablility. And I agree, you're right, way too long before doing anything interesting. A failure.
The idea mentioned long ago by eisprinzessin, building up the game lenght with the difficulty, is great.

[shawnmck]

I honestly don't consider Titan Quest too long at all.
I do feel that some parts dragged on a bit too long, such as parts of Greece, such as the minoan dungeon, and a few other places, but overall I thought it was fine.
Its the variety that keeps things fresh & exciting, and if a game is just a cut & paste variety then it will seem longer than it actually is.
Diablo 2 had lots of that, which really bored the heck out of me.

[Kibou]

I think the length of TQ is fine, the problem is having to play through it three times in order to finish it on the highest difficulty and fully develop a character. As described in the difficulty thread (http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1600), my favorite solution would be to make normal shorter than epic (as was also brought up here by Eisprinzessin), and to turn legendary into a kind of free-play sandbox mode for farming and grinding.

I guess, though, that GD will feature a completely different system in the long run, as multiple difficulties in general won't work well with multiple installments and maybe even open world (http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1170) areas.

[Ariaya]

I agree with the general consensus that Titan Quest, although a great game, was too long. I like the 3 difficulty levels, especially when you have better loot drops per difficulty. Diablo 2 always felt like it was the perfect length.

I hope that Grim Dawn is no more than about 8-10 hours per difficulty level. This way you get to try out different classes and builds, something I would have liked to do more with TQ but the game's length makes it prohibitive.

[Kibou]

Let's say you have two games: one is rather short, but has the classic three difficulties. The other is about 50% longer, but has only two difficulties. Thus, taking one character through the entire game will take about the same time, but in the first game, you have to play the same levels three times, in the other game only two times.

Do you guys really think the first one is better? For what reason?

[yerkyerk]

Let's say you have two games: one is rather short, but has the classic three difficulties. The other is about 50% longer, but has only two difficulties. Thus, taking one character through the entire game will take about the same time, but in the first game, you have to play the same levels three times, in the other game only two times.

Do you guys really think the first one is better? For what reason?

Adding another difficulty is a cheap and easy way to add content. Adding 50% content is not. Perhaps compare it with 5% of content or an added difficulty? I think I'm being quite generous with the 5%, but I'm not sure.

[hooby]

The easiest way to increase game length always was and always will be to reduce combat and walking speed.

I don't think trying to make a game "longer" in any other way, than actually adding content, can ever be anything else than just padding - and there's only a certain amount of padding a player can take, before it becomes annoying.

[Skellt]

slowing down combat speed though can go two ways, i love epic fights that take 20-30 mins and plus (I.e. everquest / monsterhunter. ...) but lot of people dont.

Though thats for bosses, if i fight a mob and i feel it being slow i'll be like hmm my char (while being more realistic than boom you're dead) will feel week to all the past experiences of Hack and Slash games.

[mamba]

I agree with the general consensus that Titan Quest, although a great game, was too long.

I completely disagree with that, there were some regions which could have been somewhat shorter / more diverse (you were running through the same scenery for quite some time, in Greece and some degree Egypt, not so much in Orient and Hades), but the overall game length was fine by me.

If I like a game, it can go on quite some time ;)

Heck, I played 8 or so chars, half of them into legendary (two finishing it), the rest into epic, so it clearly was not too long ;)

The easiest way to increase game length always was and always will be to reduce combat and walking speed.

I don't think trying to make a game "longer" in any other way, than actually adding content, can ever be anything else than just padding - and there's only a certain amount of padding a player can take, before it becomes annoying.

I think the walking speed in TQ should have been a bit faster, so decreasing that to increase game length would be a major annoyance.

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

I completely disagree with that, there were some regions which could have been somewhat shorter / more diverse (you were running through the same scenery for quite some time, in Greece and some degree Egypt, not so much in Orient and Hades), but the overall game length was fine by me.

If I like a game, it can go on quite some time ;)

Heck, I played 8 or so chars, half of them into legendary (two finishing it), the rest into epic, so it clearly was not too long ;)



I think the walking speed in TQ should have been a bit faster, so decreasing that to increase game length would be a major annoyance.

I am going to agree with you. I liked the fact that TQ was longer than diablo. Granted I only did 1 full play through. (time constraints due to work). D2 i felt was just to short. You spend this time getting yourself to be a good character and oh its done now. TQ didn't suffer from that. You got to enjoy your good character longer.

[jake21]

I liked that TQ was long; I wished it had a bit more to offer in some areas; but overall the length was not a turn off to me. I generally do not like short games.

Never was a big fan of D2; found it kind of short and ughly.

Makes me a bit worried that GD is gonna be very short (shorter than TQ would not necessary be a turn off per sey but I hope it isn't silly short).

Anyways hopefully the game will do really well and the developers can reward the fans with extensions (additional areas) if the game ends up too short.

[eisprinzessin]

jake21 - have you used http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/images/misc/stafftracker.png to check medierra's feedback?

[jake21]

I had no idea what that funky symbol meant but I did follow the link you posted (thanks!).

Not overjoyed with a greece size game but hopefully it will do well and the extensions (installments) will follow shortly. The sad part is that it makes buying a bit tricky. One the one hand I feel like preordering to support the developers and because I thought TQ was a good effort (though i'd prefer a bit of puzzles; even laura croft guiding light type puzzles are a good start). On the other hand when games go to installments and dlc I just assumed wait until everything is packaged and buy at the end (it drives me nuts what they did with DA and ME2). Oh well I'll probably do the pre-order but this is a bit of a let down.

jake21 - have you used http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/images/misc/stafftracker.png to check medierra's feedback?

[eisprinzessin]

Look out for funky symbols - they are all over the place ;)

Is that really a reason to be sad?I'm looking forward to this model - I expect this will keep the game fresh and entertaining. Splitting the game into multiple installments will enable Crate to focus on the quality of each.

[wickedinsane]

I would also highly welcome a game which is at least as long as TitanQuest + IT. I would also prefer to have a more open world so a little less linearity would make sense and may compensate a lack of length if there will be one...

[Jack]

I'm sorry, but i didn't have the time to read it all so i just wanted to say that in TQ the worst thing (as mentioned above) was the linear gradient. you sometimes just walked on a path for 5 minutes or more wich is only 5m from one to the other side :eek:
so it would be very nice to put in some more optional paths or even that you have quest where you have to go back to cities from the beginning. so you travel around (forward,back,backforward,back and so one :D) and unlock quests in each city/place and then go on and maybe return again on another point of the game. anything like that maybe.. just some stupid ideas :D
thanks for listening
Jack

[Confuted]

I would also prefer to have a more open world so a little less linearity would make sense and may compensate a lack of length if there will be one...
You're in luck http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18519&postcount=1