Basic Attacks Suck! A Rant… (ARPG)

[Scryer]

So I was thinking about game-play in the Action RPG genre, and an idea snapped in my head, basic attacks really suck.

I understand the purpose of a basic attack – you’re out of mana and so you need to do a little basic hand-to-hand combat or maybe shoot a measly arrow or two before you get your mana back. Also, what a better way to show how much your characters’ progressed through the game than to show them the difference between a basic attack and awesome abilities that cost some mana? Mana is a resource don’t you know?

But is that fun? Is it really fun to be forced back to your measly basic attack at higher levels? I don’t believe it is… in fact it’s a little frustrating. You have to manage your resources in a frustrating way because if you run out of it your back to the boring basic attack. Alternatively you can find some passive ways to regenerate mana. + Mana steal, + mana regeneration, which are very much passive game-play elements, they’re not engaging except numerically, which isn’t relatively fun compared to the shear game-play of active combat.

So what does a game designer do when given this very noticeable issue? Well, my solution, which may be different from yours or anyone else’s, is to just make the game more active and synergistic.

Maybe it’s not surprising but I believe that an action game needs to have action, and basic attacks are sort of less ‘actiony’ then they should be. So my solution is a simple one.

Add skills that recharge mana, give the player choices between mana recharge skills and mana spending skills. No longer are we slaves to mana potions, though as an emergency we could easily add mana potions with a significant cool-down attached to them.

Keep the player moving; give players interesting choices between their mana recharge skills and their mana spending skills and design for synergies.

I know, a lot of you are going to be like “Well, isn’t that what Diablo 3 is doing?” and the answer is yes, that is what Diablo 3 is doing. But it’s not a bad concept, in fact it entirely makes sense, the player should have more active skills at their disposal regardless if they’ve run out of mana or not, because basic attacks are boring! Especially at higher levels when you don’t want to be using a basic attack when you’re surrounded by 30 deadly level 80 monsters, you want to have abilities you can fall back on that don’t require mana.

This concept not only allows the designer to make more interesting enemy encounters, it also allows them to play around with boss encounters, the designer knows that the player is not limited by a mana potion, but by certain skill sets.

Basic attacks suck! It’s about time this genre grew out of them to make more engaging action encounters and interesting non-passive resource management.

[Roros]

I've seen a few games lately do the "build energy/spend energy" skills. I'm a little mixed about that system in particular, I remember in Champions Online especially I'd just hold 1 while glaring at my bars, before doing my "nuke", then repeating until the target was dead.

I think how Guild Wars does it is actually one of my favourites. There's a basic grunt attack, but the mana/cooldown costs of the skills are *just* so that you are constantly using them while still having to actually manage and get a good feel of their costs and cooldowns.
The only downside was 'weaving', where it sometimes became beneficial to weave in a basic attack between each skill to get the most dps per buck. Disregarding balance and whether it's intentional or not, it was just a hassle and a headache to do, and made the combat less fun and more routine.

[icedmetal57]

I suppose you could just have multiple mana-recharging abilities that may have some pros to them but are a bit weaker than what a basic attack might do. For example this "basic" attack ability recharges some mana but you deal less damage than what you'd expect a basic attack might do and also applies an armor reduction debuff to the enemy. Another "basic" attack ability also recharges some mana, deals a bit more than what you'd expect a basic attack might do but has a cooldown, possibly longer than the previous ability mentioned. You could have a few "basic" attack abilities rather than just a regular basic attack and it's based off the character being played or maybe the weapon they're using or class or whatever else.

Even though they may deal as much damage or less than what you'd expect from a basic attack they're more interesting and having a few of them would add some variety. Then when it comes to mana using abilities they're stronger and so using mana on them would be worthwhile, not that I've ran into the problem much where abilities aren't worth wasting mana on.

[Dejnov]

TQIT already has this built in. There are a bunch of default attack skills that drain little to no mana that for all effective purposes are a replacement to the default melee skill. Why would you think that Crate won't do that for Grim Dawn?

If you're playing a dedicated melee class in Grim Dawn, you (probably) won't be making basic attacks ever.

Dejnov.

P.S. The only reason for the probably is because the game isn't out yet and we can't definitively say yes or no, but if you look closely at TQIT more than half of the melee classes had an upgrade basic attack that was a left click. Those that didn't had passive buffs that resulted in cool attacks.

[NZSpy]

Isn't that what mana potions are for? Keep enough of them so you don't run out for more than a few seconds. TQ/TQIT had plenty of ways to keeps your mana pool from running down too low. If you never ran out of mana. I fear it would make things a little too easy. You have to manage your attacks and mana pool. Besides that using an ultra cool staff weapon or bow isn't exactly what I would define as boring, which after all would be your default attack. I'm all for innovation and different systems but not to the point where it makes things easier or too easy.

[Executioneer]

as scryer, the D3 idea is not bad at all, but on the other hand, i had some toons in TQIT namely, my best conqueror, who attacked with onslaught while doing charges and so on, and even when in colossal form, my mana would not go below half. i also had a diviner who managed to beat the game @ xmax no deaths by utilising almost only ternion, and guess what? her mana was not a problem. you know who the problem is... spirit empusas that drain you dry of every living source you have without proper resistances. but as soon as you manage to obtain those, you're good to go again.

in my experience, the basic attack was only relied on in the begining where skills aren't abundant nor deadly.

maybe combining these ideas could really lead to an enhanced gameplay experience, like considering a warrior:

he would have attacks like onslaught that require him to use some stamina thus mana, and others possibly passive skills that return mana every time the player criticals, maybe variant according to equipment.

and to keep it realistic, how could a character not have a basic attack??
else he would start naked, weaponless, and knowledgeless:eek: = pure suicide!!

[Malpheas]

It isn't a bad idea, scryer. End game, when I get a good amount of mana or cheap attacks, this isn't an issue. I think the paradigm is different in Diablo, and you're not going to be able to spam your super attack in low levels. That doesn't make sense to me, to be the most deadly having just learned the skill.

Think of it as endurance.

I disagree that all systems should be like Diablo, if they have their own built systems already and their systems work.

[Renevent]

I absolutely loved how TQ handled basic attacks in melee focused builds...I also think it's FAR more interesting than the skill spam of Diablo 2.

In TQ you started out with a measly normal attack, but after a while you start getting a few passives that makes your normal attacks pretty bad ass (certain percentage of them, anyways). This to me served two functions for me. One...made my character feel like he was actually progressing in melee combat (aside from just normal skills) and gave even normal combat more diversity. And two...retained normal attacks as valid and useful actions in combat between cooldowns of other skills.

I've been playing Path of Exile lately and it uses the old Diablo 2 style of skill spam attacking and honestly...it's boring, it has no style, and it's not fun anymore. Inferno blow. Inferno blow. Infernal blow. Ad nauseam 200 times in a row.

Titan Quest's combat flow had rhythm. It had style. I felt like I was balancing more actions and timing things more strategically then spamming the same skill over and over and just chugging potions (or stacking mana regen/leech).

[yerkyerk]

I'm pretty sure I suggested skills that regenerate mana before in at least one topic, so I can only say that I agree with such a system. Well, for one class. I think it's fun for every class to have their own mana regen system.

A warrior could gain mana by using certain skills
A wizard could have the plain mana regen skill - or perhaps steal mana through skills.
A necromancer could siphon his own life if he runs out of mana (or switch to it manually).
A paladin could do more damage the higher his mana reserve.
Well, etc...

Since you're building a hybrid, you can choose two :)
Any unique mana system would create unique possibilities for an energy shield skill (not the one used in TQ).

[ASYLUM101]

I've been playing Path of Exile lately and it uses the old Diablo 2 style of skill spam attacking and honestly...it's boring, it has no style, and it's not fun anymore. Inferno blow. Inferno blow. Infernal blow. Ad nauseam 200 times in a row.

Maybe you should pick up another skill then, because from what I remember infernal blow was one of the less effective melee skills for a marauder. I found cleave, Swing, leap slam, glacial hammer and ground slam far more effective for various situations. Infernal blow has a tiny aoe and doesn't even do that much damage, glacial does a ton of damage and slows your target (good for bosses), swing is good if you are surrounded, cleave is a good replacement for swing if you are using a single handed (non mace) weapon, ground slam is a good choice for aoe damage if you are using mace types, and leap slam has its purposes.

Not to mention, they're adding a ton of new skills and effects as they progress with the updates. Last patch they added 9 new skills, and the goal is to hit something like 100 skills (currently at like 30 or 40.)

Features:
Added new skill prototype - "Explosive Arrow": Fires an arrow which inflicts a short duration fuse charge on the enemy. Applying additional charges extends the duration. When the target dies or the fuses expire, the charges explode, dealing fire splash damage to nearby enemies.
Added new skill prototype - "Temporal Chains": Curses all targets in an area, making time pass more slowly for them. They will move, attack and cast at a reduced speed and effects on them expire slower.
Added new skill prototype - "Elemental Weakness": Curses all targets in an area, making them less resistant to elemental damage and more vulnerable to elemental status effects.
Added new skill prototype - "Warlord's Mark": Curses all targets in an area. Attacks on the cursed targets will leech life and mana, and killing them will result in more flask charges and a chance to gain an endurance charge.
Added new skill prototype - "Punishment": Curses all targets in an area, causing them to suffer some of the physical damage they deal with their attacks.
Added new skill prototype - "Enfeeble": Curses all targets in an area, making their attacks less effective.
Added new skill prototype - "Critical Weakness": Curses all targets in an area, making them more vulnerable to critical strikes.
Added new skill prototype - "Projectile Weakness": Curses all targets in an area, making them easier for projectiles to pierce and easier to knock back, while reducing their evasion against projectiles.
Added new skill prototype - "Vulnerability": Curses all targets in an area, making them take increased damage from physical attacks and degeneration, and easier to stun. The target's energy shield will regenerate more slowly

These new skills give you a huuuge variety when you play marauder now cause you can debuff enemies/buff your allies and yourself with a few of these.

[Renevent]

I've used them all...cleave is probably the best one. The problem is, if you play mace and shield cleave requires bladed (axe and sword) weapons. It's not that great honestly spamming that either.

Glacial hammer is practically useless...barely does any more damage than regular attack (even with a +ice damage supporting gem).

The curses (and buffs) are equally spammy. The duration for the buffs are sad imo.

On my marauder I have infernal blow, slam, glacial hammer, shield slam, the endurance buff, and one of the curses (I forget which one). It's all the same.

The developers already know their melee skills/balancing needs a big overhaul anyways and the game is in early beta so I am sure a lot of that will improve. With that said, I prefer Titan Quest's approach much better and I think PoE is outdated game play wise.

That's my opinion at least, I'm sure there's other folks out there that find PoE's skill system awesome.

[ASYLUM101]

Mace/Shield sucks fyi, marauder has a huge tanky buff and like 20 passives in the tree that increase armor, so shields are wasted since you can hit the damage resistance cap so easily. The only benefit of shield/mace is the spammable shield charge, the only melee skill that can NEVER miss and always do good damage.

The best marauder build atm is 2h mace user from what i've seen. SO much damage output in comparison and equally tanky thanks to the passives.

Idk what you're saying about glacial hammer, mine does about 150% of what my weapon does, whereas infernal blow does exactly the same as my weapon.

Glacial hammer level 1 does 54% increased damage with a 8% chance to freeze at level 1. At level 5, it's 85% damage with 13% chance to freeze. I've got it socketed with a cold gem, but it's a meager avg 5 cold damage (doesn't level since i have no dex) as well as a level 3 life leech gem (1%... this is the one thing they really need tp improve on, the life leech is pathetic)

Infernal Blow level 1 does 20% increased damage with the corpse explosion effect, which really doesn't even do a whole lot of damage. Infernal blow level 7 is only 45% damage boost... its really pathetic in comparison to everything else. Shield charge is better for single targets at max range (which is easy, since at max range you knock them back anyway, so just kite +charge) and deals 100% of your weapon damage (my mace/board marauder who i stopped using was hitting for ~200 with that)

Glacial hammer is a better choice for bosses, groundslam/cleave/leapslam/sweep* are faaaaar better for mob stomping.

The debuffs/buffs are spammy, so what? They add a ton of depth to the game as it is and are very fun to use compared to the TQIT debuffs/buffs which are boring as piss.

[Renevent]

Mace/Shield sucks fyi, marauder has a huge tanky buff and like 20 passives in the tree that increase armor, so shields are wasted since you can hit the damage resistance cap so easily. The only benefit of shield/mace is the spammable shield charge, the only melee skill that can NEVER miss and always do good damage.

That's a pretty big issue...no? Anyways I do know that as I mentioned the developers talking about the melee re-balancing that needs to be done.


The best marauder build atm is 2h mace user from what i've seen. SO much damage output in comparison and equally tanky thanks to the passives.

Yeah I've tried other melee classes as well including 2HD. Felt more powerful, still just as boring.

Idk what you're saying about glacial hammer, mine does about 150% of what my weapon does, whereas infernal blow does exactly the same as my weapon.

Glacial hammer level 1 does 54% increased damage with a 8% chance to freeze at level 1. At level 5, it's 85% damage with 13% chance to freeze. I've got it socketed with a cold gem, but it's a meager avg 5 cold damage (doesn't level since i have no dex) as well as a level 3 life leech gem (1%... this is the one thing they really need tp improve on, the life leech is pathetic



According the my skill page it says 76% more damage...it certainly doesn't feel that way. Enemies (especially because everything misses so much) take tons of hits from glacial hammer and I watch their health bar...it's just not worth the mana. For a single target skill it doesn't kill anywhere near fast enough.

Infernal Blow level 1 does 20% increased damage with the corpse explosion effect, which really doesn't even do a whole lot of damage. Infernal blow level 7 is only 45% damage boost... its really pathetic in comparison to everything else. Shield charge is better for single targets at max range (which is easy, since at max range you knock them back anyway, so just kite +charge) and deals 100% of your weapon damage (my mace/board marauder who i stopped using was hitting for ~200 with that)

It's 50% for infernal blow for me, and then 25% aoe damage for every enemy in the vicinity of the dying enemy. That's a meager 25% tradeoff in single target damage for 25% AoE damage (hits multiple enemies). It's not balanced right...I don't bother using glacial hammer as infernal blow is linked to my RMB and Glacial Hammer's benefits are barely worth swapping out or hitting any other key but RMB heh.

The debuffs/buffs are spammy, so what?

I think they are boring and tedious, that's what. It's annoying to have to recast a bunch of stuff every few seconds.

They add a ton of depth to the game as it is and are very fun to use compared to the TQIT debuffs/buffs which are boring as piss.

I hold the exact opposite opinion...all I find is they add tedium. There's no depth to spamming the same skills...the depth comes in the statistics (ie builds behind them).

Titan Quest had a nice mix of both active and permanent buffs/debuffs, whereas PoE has you spamming that shit like crazy. It's not even fun it's manic game play. When I play PoE I'm constantly spamming the same attacks every second and just guzzling mana pots...it's ancient game play...it's a relic.

I'm gald you like it, I'm just not feeling the game.

[ASYLUM101]

According the my skill page it says 76% more damage...it certainly doesn't feel that way. Enemies (especially because everything misses so much) take tons of hits from glacial hammer and I watch their health bar...it's just not worth the mana. For a single target skill it doesn't kill anywhere near fast enough.


If you miss so much, the problem isn't the skill....

That's a pretty big issue...no?

I don't think so. A tanky class being naturally tanky doesn't seem like an issue, neither does exchanging a tanky item for a beefy damage item to gain damage. It's more of a class direction than an "issue".


I'm gald you like it, I'm just not feeling the game.

How can you be gald?

[Renevent]

If you miss so much, the problem isn't the skill....

Right, it's another issue they are re-balancing. My hit % is like 90% and most of what I've taken has been damage/accuracy passives...meanwhile seems like 50% of my attacks miss. This isn't an issue in the first difficulty (although it's still spammy)...only in later difficulties. They said it was the monster dodge rates or something to that effect.

I don't think so. A tanky class being naturally tanky doesn't seem like an issue, neither does exchanging a tanky item for a beefy damage item to gain damage. It's more of a class direction than an "issue".

Every passive I've taken (other than 1 or 2) has been damage, speed, and accuracy for melee weapons or maces specifically...hardly going for a tanky build. The fact my character has a shield doesn't mean it has to suck at damage...as TQ has shown.

How can you be gald?

Typo...happens to everyone.

Anyways here's a nice video showing what I am talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va845_DOTXg

I was mostly enjoying the game up until I started getting a bit higher in level...then it started going down hill. I know they will balance it out soon, so looking forward to some of the next patches.

It's still spammy as hell, and I like TQ's system MUCH better, but I'll probably end up playing PoE anyways since it's free.

[ASYLUM101]

Right, it's another issue they are re-balancing. My hit % is like 90% and most of what I've taken has been damage/accuracy passives...meanwhile seems like 50% of my attacks miss. This isn't an issue in the first difficulty (although it's still spammy)...only in later difficulties. They said it was the monster dodge rates or something to that effect.

Yup. Dodge/hit/evasion is somewhat buggy atm. I trust GGG will fix the game proper and make it far better than it already is, and it's already pretty freaking awesome for a completely FREE TO PLAY INDIE BETA.

They take into consideration all the input and QQ on the forums about all the skills and everything, so I'm sure they've got an idea of what needs to be adjusted.

Every passive I've taken (other than 1 or 2) has been damage, speed, and accuracy for melee weapons or maces specifically...hardly going for a tanky build. The fact my character has a shield doesn't mean it has to suck at damage...as TQ has shown.


Remember when you acknowledged that this was a beta and things were still subject to change, and as it stands we have 40 out of 100 skills or so?

Yeah. What makes you think they won't add more shield skills in the future? I said that that build sucks NOW, that doesn't mean in the future it will still be bad.

Back on topic....

In my mod for TQIT, I have several mana return skills for some of the more mana-intensive classes.

My shaman class - there's a heal with and added mana regen buff which lasts after the instant heal about 10 seconds, so you get your refund and then some.

My cabal class - there's a passive to reduce mana costs, increase your total mana reserve, and your regeneration. The synergy to that gives an energy leeching aura, which helps the class sustain mana costs over time. And lastly, an "ultimate" tier skill which encases the cabal in an energy shell and regens everything. (think stone form)

My Druid class - there's an attack speed skill similar to onslaught (progressively grows in speed, its really awesome!) and the synergy to that skill increases your mana regeneration by a set %. Since you're using a staff, you already have a high mana regen, so it works very well. In addition, the class has a passive flat mana regeneration skill as well.

My sentinel class - there's a shield buff which reduces all incoming damage, and if you take any damage from spells - you get a mana return.

My point is - there's a lot of ways you can do this, and I'm fine with mana-return spells personally, so long as they are interesting and fitting.

[Renevent]

Yup. Dodge/hit/evasion is somewhat buggy atm. I trust GGG will fix the game proper and make it far better than it already is, and it's already pretty freaking awesome for a completely FREE TO PLAY INDIE BETA.

They take into consideration all the input and QQ on the forums about all the skills and everything, so I'm sure they've got an idea of what needs to be adjusted.

I know it's a beta....and I only mentioned the missing issue as a side not...that wasn't my primary point.

0.9.3 patch also directly addresses single target skills, so what I am saying obviously hold merit:

http://www.pathofexile.com/news/2011-09-30/dev-diary-patch-0-9-3#single


Single-target attacks are now meaningful

A design goal of 0.9.3 is that characters should be able to play in high difficulty areas using single-target attack skills if they want to. These skills have been rebalanced to feel meaningful in combat, delivering substantially more damage per enemy than AoE spells. It will often be correct to deliver area damage initially, before switching to single-target skills to efficiently finish off stragglers. The mana costs of these skills have been balanced around this also.

Remember when you acknowledged that this was a beta and things were still subject to change, and as it stands we have 40 out of 100 skills or so?

Yeah. What makes you think they won't add more shield skills in the future? I said that that build sucks NOW, that doesn't mean in the future it will still be bad.

All of this minutia isn't my main complaint about the combat in the first place, so bugs/balance issues isn't the main point in what I am saying. My complaint is it's the same Diablo 2 skill spam, and I was just giving my opinion of why I thought Titan Quest had better normal melee combat. You got us into all these weeds lol.

[ASYLUM101]

No I just ignored that point cause D2 wasn't 'spammy' since you had VERY little mana and limited pots unlike PoE.

[Renevent]

Compared to TQ, it was, for the reasons I pointed out. Maybe it all depends how you play either game, I dunno.

That's pretty funny though...after a whole discussion getting into the weeds about mechanics (and what I said had merit as shown by the devs own planned changes)...at the end you say:

"oh I ignored your main point"

WTF?

Good stuff :rolleyes:

[ASYLUM101]

It wasn't a good main point since it doesn't really compare as you suggest.

[Renevent]

It absolutely does...and I gave examples in how they compare. Sorry bub.

It's hilarious that you even said D2 wasn't spammy though...the term 'skill spam' was practically created by that series.

[ASYLUM101]

I'm gald you're enjoying yourself on the GD forums.

[Renevent]

http://files.sharenator.com/600107_oh_you_super_The_green_lantern-s450x338-191724-580.jpg

lol...

Anyways what dejnov said I think is right on:

TQIT already has this built in. There are a bunch of default attack skills that drain little to no mana that for all effective purposes are a replacement to the default melee skill. Why would you think that Crate won't do that for Grim Dawn?

That's my opinion too. At high level in TQ you didn't just have your measly normal attack either...you had disable, pulverize, and tons of other passive skills that could augment your main attack in some way...sometimes (in the case of pulverize) into a force in itself.

[DeAdOne]

So I was thinking about game-play in the Action RPG genre, and an idea snapped in my head, basic attacks really suck.

I agree with you on this and hopefully in GD like with TQ melee classes we will be able to level up passive skills to increase attack damage, antimations, AOE attacks,type of damage,etc of basic attacks. Hopefully all classes of GD will make use of these skills and to a greater extent.New gameplay mechanics would keep the game play from feeling generic,because so many games use the same gameplay now days.To me it just gets boring.I am hoping that GD will have new interesting additions to gameplay just as TQ added.