What will Crate do to prevent online cheating?

[OveMelaa]

Hi.

Just wondering what Crate will do to prevent cheating. TQ is cool online, but you should know the people you are playing with to prevent playing with cheaters. Cheating has always annoyed me. So im just wondering if it will be the same with Grim Dawn. Its not that a big deal since i usually play with people i know... but im just wondering :)

Cheers guys!:rolleyes:

[Malpheas]

Why play online with people you don't know if you're scared of cheating?

IF Crate has closed secured servers then that's your answer. Otherwise, play single player or with people you trust.

[popsthegreat]

Yea, I only play password protected games online.

[alexei]

Yeah, nothing gonna change until Crate got hold of secure server. Played it with your friends or people you trust.

[PureKnickers]

Consider the limited resources these guys have right now, I imagine that the 'boot' button is going to be the anti-cheating.

[medierra]

As people have mentioned here already - there is really no way we can prevent online cheating without secure servers and that is a cost we cannot afford at this time. It is something that we'd definitely like to do in the future if the game becomes successful enough that we could afford it.

[happylizard]

As people have mentioned here already - there is really no way we can prevent online cheating without secure servers and that is a cost we cannot afford at this time. It is something that we'd definitely like to do in the future if the game becomes successful enough that we could afford it.

a group of people who are very honest...........

[Starkrun]

I'm for the boot approach, or if they can setup an IP banning option that would be ideal.

[medierra]

I'm for the boot approach, or if they can setup an IP banning option that would be ideal.

It's funny, I was actually just wondering whether a "dedicated server" type approach might work. There is still a lot of cheating even on battle.net, so it seems that, at some level, human involvement is necessary to combat cheating. It seems like a very cost-effective way to handle this could be dedicated servers that players run and police. This seems to work fairly well for some of the PC shooter mods I've played like Day of Defeat.

I think the main problem though, is that there is no way to really verify whether or not someone legitimately collected all the equipment they are wearing.

[Scryer]

Player policed might work, there'd have to be controls set in place so that people (the player police) won't abuse their role.

I know that has an even bigger chance to happen with players but, then again, we're talking about an ARPG that might only have 4-6 players a game.

[alexei]

Hmm.. I'm not really understand this player police system..

A player police in every 6 player game?

[alexei]

I think the main problem though, is that there is no way to really verify whether or not someone legitimately collected all the equipment they are wearing.

Can we implement a mechanic where a code is generated for each item when they drop? This could be used to verify whether an item is generated via a trainer or not where a trainer don't have any code.

But I see many flaw in this method. The algorithm that being used to create the item can be used my trainer maker to generate code when trainer use create an item.

Trainer maker are essentially hacker. So, any encryption would be useless.

[Starkrun]

Once people play the game they will be used to seeing the stats and bonuses on weapons/armor. Just give the server admin or hoster the ability to inspect everyone's equipment when they join, a special button or screen that shows everyone in the game that when clicked opens there inv for viewing. Also a play time for that char would be nice along with stats/resists, or other information EG: whether the player is 10 days old or 10 hours... a 10 hour old char isn't going to have lvl 200 gear and have capped stats :)

I know in diablo 2 i could tell in a few seconds weather they were weaing hacked items or items legitly collected.

Trainer maker are essentially hacker. So, any encryption would be useless.

Trainers are not hackers in the slightest, (no detail just basics) they use a program that monitors memory calls and they record all calls for a set time and compare the calls after performing an action in game. This shows them what to change to make that effect happens when thy want. its extremely easy, the hard part is coding a program to do it with key presses. No files are modified in anyway for trainers to work. Thats why a lot of trainers might red flag as a virus.

[Renevent]

"Also a play time for that char would be nice along with stats/resists, or other information EG: whether the player is 10 days old or 10 hours... a 10 hour old char isn't going to have lvl 200 gear and have capped stats "

A simple, yet fantastic idea. But somehow I'd imagine if they are able to hack equipment, they would be able to set that as well.

[medierra]

I think if we allowed the host to view the equipment and stats of all players inside a game this would help identify anyone overtly cheating and then they could ban by IP.

There would be no way of detecting whether someone had given themselves real items that they did not acquire through normal play. You also couldn't tell whether their character was hacked if it had the right number of stats / skill points and a reasonable play-time was set.

It seems like this still might be beneficial. You wouldn't know whether someone had worked to level their character or earn their equipment but you'd at least know that their character and equipment had legit stats.

Ideas like creating item codes or what not just don't work. There is really no practical way to encrypt all of the information in a game so that it can't be hacked. The banking industry, with billions of dollars, can't even prevent people from hacking debit cards. With a game like this, players already have all of the game's data on their hard drives. Any encryption or other security measure you employ is static. With time and ingenuity, people will always be able to defeat any static security measure.

Blizzard probably spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year trying to minimize cheating on battle.net. I say "minimize" because even there 100% prevention is impossible. Only with regular policing, patching, and account banning can you keep cheating to a minimum.

On console it is a lot easier since it is a closed architecture. There is no easy way to get at the data. In order to cheat, player's have to physically modify their consoles. It is too much effort for most people but still people do it and the frequency of it is increasing.

Combating cheating requires an on-going human effort even when games are hosted on secure servers with server-side character storage. The costs are just far beyond what we will likely be able to afford for the foreseeable future.

However, it seems like it might be possible for players to manage this similar to what has been done with FPS like Day of Defeat. People could host dedicated servers and require other players to register before allowing their IP to connect. If people broke the host's rules, they could be banned.

Of course, this is a pretty small-scale solution and wouldn't allow anyone purchasing the game to easily connect to secure multiplayer. It does seem like a viable option for those really hardcore players that desperately want some form of secure multiplayer though.

[Renevent]

What about a mix between player run dedicated servers (hosted from their computer/server) and Crate ran character storage servers?

What I mean is, most of the actual work is being done by the player run servers, but the actual character data is being stored on 1 (or maybe more) servers ran by Crate.

[alexei]

Once people play the game they will be used to seeing the stats and bonuses on weapons/armor. Just give the server admin or hoster the ability to inspect everyone's equipment when they join, a special button or screen that shows everyone in the game that when clicked opens there inv for viewing. Also a play time for that char would be nice along with stats/resists, or other information EG: whether the player is 10 days old or 10 hours... a 10 hour old char isn't going to have lvl 200 gear and have capped stats :)

I know in diablo 2 i could tell in a few seconds weather they were weaing hacked items or items legitly collected.


This is a fantastic idea and very simple way to manage cheating in player hosted server. I think this is the most possible option for Crate right now when the secure server is not available.


Trainers are not hackers in the slightest, (no detail just basics) they use a program that monitors memory calls and they record all calls for a set time and compare the calls after performing an action in game. This shows them what to change to make that effect happens when thy want. its extremely easy, the hard part is coding a program to do it with key presses. No files are modified in anyway for trainers to work. Thats why a lot of trainers might red flag as a virus.

What I mean is not the trainer is hacking activities, but people who make trainer have knowledge how to hack into the game file and look into what I suggest as 'algorithm'. Like medierra said, a static algorithm embedded into game files is a not a way to prevent cheating because sooner or later, trainer maker will crack the code.

So what I suggest as generating code into items when they drop is not a reliable method.

Ideas like creating item codes or what not just don't work. There is really no practical way to encrypt all of the information in a game so that it can't be hacked. The banking industry, with billions of dollars, can't even prevent people from hacking debit cards. With a game like this, players already have all of the game's data on their hard drives. Any encryption or other security measure you employ is static. With time and ingenuity, people will always be able to defeat any static security measure.

That's very true. That's why people said, as long as people want to decrypt it, they will decrypt it no matter how tough the security is. Even people who make security software still have their software hacked and cracked.

What about a mix between player run dedicated servers (hosted from their computer/server) and Crate ran character storage servers?

What I mean is, most of the actual work is being done by the player run servers, but the actual character data is being stored on 1 (or maybe more) servers ran by Crate.

I think that we're discussing based on assumption that we won't have any secure server. So I didn't know how to comment about this. But as long as there is secure server, combating cheating is much easier although it is not 100% cheat-proof.

[Renevent]

The only reason I mentioned it is because it's a mixed approach...and maybe less expensive. I don't know if it's even feasible, though.

[medierra]

What about a mix between player run dedicated servers (hosted from their computer/server) and Crate ran character storage servers?

What I mean is, most of the actual work is being done by the player run servers, but the actual character data is being stored on 1 (or maybe more) servers ran by Crate.

There wouldn't be much point in secure storage unless the game simulation was running on a secure server as well. Otherwise cheaters can just modifying their character while the game is running and then save it off to the secure storage.

[Starkrun]

I con confidently say Ive ran into very little cheating on TQ servers, only once in a great while I find a person in all super uniques with 30 stats each and a charm Ive never heard of.

[LeStryfe79]

We need Dungeon Masters! :D

[gesto21]

Some jackass somewhere will find a way to exploit any system. Humans are imba, and need to be tweaked. This is why it costs $$$ to have "secure" games, the system needs to be constantly monitored & altered to combat the nonstop assault of exploitation attempts. Basically, game income/time period must be > cost of battling cheating jackasses/time period, or secure public play is not possible.

[medierra]

Some jackass somewhere will find a way to exploit any system. Humans are imba, and need to be tweaked. This is why it costs $$$ to have "secure" games, the system needs to be constantly monitored & altered to combat the nonstop assault of exploitation attempts. Basically, game income/time period must be > cost of battling cheating jackasses/time period, or secure public play is not possible.

This is the sad truth.

[Mindray]

I had an idea to allow admins to view players full inventory for cheated items like 'chris relic', but it fails on many levels, but I dont know if really.
Also inspecting should be possible wherever player is placed.

Another idea I had, was to make some icon that indicates 'no cheating'.

In TQ most cheaters had their own servers around, and they did there whatever they wanted.
When someone will host server with icon aka "no cheating here", you can be more or less sure that players who enter your server will be those who want some legit gameplay.
All I say, make in hosting options some additional remark that you dont want cheaters on your servers, it might work, it might not - but it will be easier for admins, then telling such in server description which will be probably limited.

If there are not secure servers we can only think about cheap shots like that. I quess Grim Dawn multiplayer will be just the same like TQ, naive believing in peoples honesty.

[SoulSeekkor]

One thing to watch out for...a major issue I can see with the IP or banning option is people abusing it, using TQ for an example for ease of understanding.

Typhon dies. "OH HEY! Look at THAT, I always wanted one of those!" ...<|You have been banned.|>

Maybe a 1 minute timer or something so people can't just ban (or KICK) you out of a game when good stuff falls.

Soul

[Malpheas]

Yeah, one reason I hardly ever played TQ online. EVER. Seriously? WTF was that?

Just one more point to make - chrisrelic was actually in the game, as a .dbr. It was made by one of the devs (if I recall, medierra can answer this one). Same with this other sword as well, there were others, etc.

I don't know whether it was possible to bring in items that weren't in the game to start. But I could be wrong.

[Shattered.likeness]

I've since started playing more legitly than i did previously, but I used to have a habit of creating hacked characters or equipment for testing purposes. Like wondering if xxx skill was worth it or not, or if an items ability would affect one of my skills. never took them online though.

There would also need to be some sort of petition system in place though for those that get IP banned because of a disagreement in game. I've been kicked from a few FPS games servers because of finding a good camping spot and taking people out before they get a chance to kill. But, I always made sure that they had an alternate path to take, instead of the one that led to me. It's not my fault that they just "had" to get revenge and let me rack up 50+ kills in a few minutes.

I just don't want to see something like this happen in GD just because some little kid gets jealous of you when you are a higher level in a game. Maybe IP ban only for individual servers while the current group is still in there. What happens when someone who cheated wants to bring in a legit toon? Too bad, you cheated once, you'll always cheat?

[ZZSmufa]

I think a system similar to L4D had could work with GD. You can call in a vote and need a majority of the players to agree to have it acted upon. So if someone is being an ass, you just have a vote to kick him. I don't think you'd even need bans if the system stayed like it was with TQ.

However, if there will be dedicated servers, then the server admin should be able to ban people and otherwise configure their server as they will. In time, players will find servers that appeal to them and where they can play with similarly minded people. Could Crate maintain a master server, where individual dedicated servers might announce themselves? Possibly with a short description/keywords of mods in use, is cheating allowed etc. And last, please make the dedicated server run in Linux.

[Furycat]

If dedicated, secure servers aren't an option then probably the best thing would be player policing coupled with a system like Warden or Ruststorm.

The system would look for things like dupes, modified items, characters with wonky stats etc. and flag these characters.

Things that get past the warden could be reported by players - the inclusion of a tool that will report someone, sending a screenshot/log to a moderator who will then take action against characters based on this may be a good solution.

Of course this will take quite a bit of manpower...gah.