Boss Fights

[andreyy]

Some of you will probably hate me for saying this, but...

All the boss fights in TQ were boring. Each and every single one. Some were less boring, some were more boring, but they were all bland.

I think most of you will agree that the boss fights should be significantly distinguished from the usual roaming around and fighting monsters. What we had in TQ was, basically, a usually big, detailed monster model casting a cycle of spells, sometimes summoning minions, and a change of the music track. Not much of a difference. Whole business came down to adjusting your inventory, avoiding his spells, usually cast in the same order, and grinding the motherfucker down.

Then how it "should" be? In my opinion, a boss fight should be like a game in a game. Like I said, significantly different from the usual gameplay. How to acquire this effect? With my limited mind, I managed to organise that into an incomplete list of three, main points:


Have the boss fights consist of multiple phases. A boss doesn't have to appear right away and be killed in just one fight. Pre-fights with minions, destruction of some summoning altars, having to set up some shit, before the actual boss arrives, fighting the boss in several environments/incarnations*, before you kill him - that's the sort of thing I'd love to see.
Make the boss more active. Make him teleport around and escape, if he's a shooter. He could make copies of himself or just be multiple. Use the god damned physics! Why didn't Typhoon catch me and smash against one of those columns?! He should use interesting, situational (also bothered in the next point) skills and act in a non-standard way.
Make the boss more interactive. Something usually seen in arcade games - the boss consists of 'elements'. You first hit his tentacles before you can hurt his eyes, that kind of stuff. The boss could react to certain, player's activity (of they barrage him with arrows/bullets, he'd cast some reflection shield, when surrounded by melees - stomp to stun or cast them away).
!!! PLACEHOLDER FOR YOUR IDEA !!!

*for example: chasing the boss across a whole palace, fighting minions on the way, before the finally final fight in the throne room

The problem I see here (except for the effort, ofc) is adjusting those boss fights for different numbers of players. In my opinion, the boss fights should force and require cooperation, different kinds of actions performed by different players in order to win. But if a boss fight is made for co-op, where one player is supposed to do this and the other to do that, in order to succeed, then what if there's just one player?

Your thoughts?

[yerkyerk]

I had a blast with fighting the bosses in TQ. The bosses were graphically very well made.
Still, I agree that the bossfights were a bit bland and too predictable.

Btw, I wonder if you ever played Immortal Throne, as that contains a lot better bossfights. And Typhon used to have pillars that could break down, but that was removed in a patch.

Have the boss fights consist of multiple phases.
Make the boss more interactive. Something usually seen in arcade games - the boss consists of 'elements'. You first hit his tentacles before you can hurt his eyes, that kind of stuff.
That's kinda the same suggestion, isn't it?
If there's a bossfight in stages, the boss should get more and more powerful each stage, rather than weaker. Else it'd become boring.


What I think would work for bosses;
With Typhon, there are several shrines. These aren't really necessary and they do not even recharge. But forcing the player to use shrines (because the boss is too powerful otherwise) and let these shrines recharge would help wonders.

Multiple bosses would usually work as well; the player can't focus on a fixed boss with specialized anti-boss equipment, because he'll get flanked by the others. At any rate, there has to go on more on the screen than just a single boss.

Random skills - no matter how hard a boss is, once you've figured out the pattern it becomes easy and boring. By equipping bosses with random skills (and perhaps a random AI), the players can't predict what happens next and the fights stay fresh.

[alexei]

I think that until boss got great AI it still will be a rather predictable fight. Boss that jumping around to cliff or hilly structure (out of player sight) then coming down smashing player without warning might be good. Of course only one should be like that not many of them.

I'm not sure what kind of AI should be scripted for. Maybe like AI that:
- can predict our next move/skill based on our action so far.
- car predict our movement based on repetitive action. Like going back and forth.
- have trump card, he save his best devastating and spiky move when players guard are down (low health)
- like yerk said, boss having random skill build.

Other than that
- boss have run speed that faster than player or equal, so it won't have hard time catching. This should only for all-attack boss and melee.
- boss that are slow-moving but with dash attack (with option for stun or throw). For huge boss like the one in first D3 footage (the siegebreaker).
- boss that are not huge and have fast run speed and dash ability and spike damage. That would make harder boss.

I believe keeping the boss with all-attack will make the boss fight's suspense feeling increase. If player lose concentration in just millisecond will cost them fortune.

[andreyy]

That's kinda the same suggestion, isn't it?
If there's a bossfight in stages, the boss should get more and more powerful each stage, rather than weaker. Else it'd become boring.

Not really. By phases, I mean something like this:

Let's say the boss is a necromancer. First you enter his cave/cemetery or wherever he lives and the gate behind you is closed. A mass of skeletons and zombies swarm you and you have to break through them and destroy/close/kill all the spawning grounds/necromancers/whatever, while new ones will spawn over time, so you'd have to do it fast enough. That's phase one. Phase two could be the final boss fight or something yet different, like fighting some elite guardians or whatever.

Coming back to what I wrote in the first post, the palace attack. Say, you're fighting some count. You storm the palace door and in the first hall, the count is waiting for you with barricades and minions, ready to fend you off. When you kill all the minions and drop the count by 20% hp, he runs away. Next phases would be running through corridors, another halls, fighting minions, trying to slow you down and defend his master, dealing with traps and finally - fighting the count in the throne room, where he'd show his true power.


I'm not again patterns. All in all, there's always some way to defeat the boss, thus there always is some pattern, eh? But they shouldn't be 100% static (spell 1, 5 sec interval, spell 2, 3 seconds, spell 3, 10 seconds...), the spells should be situational. Heck, look at Diablo in (lol) Diablo 2 - I remember being "bone prisoned" right when I made a portal and wanted to escape. The pattern should be, at the same time, demanding and fun. Like with those skelets and what's summoning them, in example #1 - if you act too slow, you'll be overwhelmed.

Just adding physics would make the boss fights a lot more entertaining - like chasing or dragging in rangers, knocking back melees, using the environment to cause the player some trouble (chunks of rock falling from the ceiling, after some boss' skill, using debris).

As for what Alexei said - super-duper spells, that's a thing to discuss separately. Every boss should use them in a different way and with different consequences. After he charges up (through whatever means), after he's damaged by a certain %, when you let him do something you're supposed to prevent*... The super spells or special, charged/happening in intervals events define the way you fight a boss. In the least interesting variant, they divide the fighting into grinding and running away, which is still an improvement over just grinding.

*activate some shit around the place, example: there's the boss and his acolytes, if the acolytes (new ones would spawn all the time) manage to take care of all shrines in the fight place, the boss is seriously buffed or even invulnerable, or: the more shrines are active, the bigger his hp regeneration, etc.

[shawnmck]

I completely disagree with this topic.
The boss fights in TQ are among the best I've seen in any ARPG.
It sounds to me you want to completely change the formula and make the boss fight encounters more like something from a FPS or JRPG.....(which I personally don't agree with).
But that's just my opinion.

[Malpheas]

Random skills - no matter how hard a boss is, once you've figured out the pattern it becomes easy and boring. By equipping bosses with random skills (and perhaps a random AI), the players can't predict what happens next and the fights stay fresh.


I think this would pretty much cover it. If not random skills, then a pallet of skills with AI to suit and not just a cycle of skills.

Cheers,

Malph

[andreyy]

Actually, I waited for someone to disagree. That's, by a lot, a matter of taste. Personally, I just want to have fun, action. Boring patterns are not fun. And the opposite, I hate all the preparation stuff, that happens in some RPGs, like drinking potions for specific fights, changing whole your gear and casting gazillion buffs before you rush in. I'd rather have myself think how to act in the actual fight.

Btw, what's JRPG? Google says: Japanese RPG. That reminds me of stuff like Final Fantasy or Pokemon, which definitely is not an option here, I dunno why you brought that up.

EDIT: Malph, that would be an improvement, but I still want more ;p

Btw, that tentacle example was a bad idea. Fighting minions and destroying items, artifacts, shrines, structures, in the course of the fight, is more like it.

[Malpheas]

If you want an epic boss fight, play Breath of Fire 4: Dragon Quarter. The final fight was a series of like... 7 fights?

It was FUN. In fact the whole game was fun, but I digress.

[Coridan]

I understand your want for variety etc., but you have to think about the amount of work that goes into each boss fight. Crate already said it costs thousands of dollars just to create one encounter. The thing about highly scripted and unique fights is that they take a ton of time to create and get working, and with a limited budget and small dev team, that gets to be a bit too ambitious (the project is ambitious as it is).

I don't doubt their ability to do it, but if they do every boss battle like this, you can likely expect a very small number of bosses, or Rhis' death due to lack of sleep.

[Malpheas]

There is that, but I think randomization is a good start.

Besides, perhaps the downside of boss fights the way andrey wants it is overly scripted fights and a sort of a reaction time fight rather than based on item stats. Character building loses a little at this point.

[eisprinzessin]

I vote for random skills, too. But I assume, that bosses can only have 2 masteries. So, a boss's pool of abilities is limited by his dual-class. However, if the second mastery was random ...

A boss should not use attacks, which do little damage against your build. The AI should let him identify his most effective powers. You will hardly be able to protect yourself against all his powers, which will make the fight less predictable.

[yerkyerk]

Well, it would be interesting just for the biggest bosses; those that are farm-intensive..

[Atomic]

Personally, I'd like to hear more dialogue during boss battles. I get the feeling that alone would ramp up the uniqueness and enjoyability during special encounters. I think it'd be easier to implement as well, since we're thinking small for the purposes of an indie title here.

[andreyy]

Lol, yeah. The bosses are so silent in TQ, they should yell at you! "I'LL RIP YOU TO SHREDS!!!", that kind of stuff.

There is that, but I think randomization is a good start.

Besides, perhaps the downside of boss fights the way andrey wants it is overly scripted fights and a sort of a reaction time fight rather than based on item stats. Character building loses a little at this point.

Nice way to put it in words. Yeah, I want more reaction time fighting, not just building. It can all be summed up in one sentence - I'd like to boss fights to be like mini-games. I wouldn't say character building would lose anything. It would still be important, because the bosses and their minions would still use certain types of spells and attacks (fire-, ice-, whatever-based). It's no loss, it's the gain of "reaction time fighting".

As for scripting, I know a bit about that and it's not that much of an effort, it's not supposed to be like God of War or Prince of Persia. Charging up of a boss is just a timer (if it's in intervals) or the reaching of some value, achieved through, say, damaging him. Minions - just summon spells, you'll have a lot of them in the game anyway. If it's not the boss summoning, then you make some spawn points, in whatever form. The way he casts spells and the spells themselves - these might be more tricky, depending on what you want to achieve, also the environment interaction.

+ some details, like making the aforementioned count invincible and have no collision, so that you can't block/stun him, while he's running away.

It is a surplus of work compared to how the bosses were made in TQ. But, FUCK! You make an amazing, big model, costing 5000$ or whatever was the sum you mentioned, just to place him to stand in one place, cast 3 spells in a fixed order and wait for being grinded? In my opinion, that's a waste. You could have just placed an enlarged skeleton with attachments there, if that was this models' purpose.

Anyway, it's a lot less work than what they'll spend on modelling, landscaping and balance. So I beg of you, make the boss fights something a player will remember!

[eisprinzessin]

In a classic RPG you fight against some bosses on multiple occasions. This way they are introduced to you, become an integral part of the story and are no one-off encounters. They either spare you, retreat, are revived or return undead.

[yerkyerk]

What could be interesting is using early bosses as mobs later on (the Minotaur Lord in TQ - except that there were already several minotaurs in the Minoan labs..). This shouldn't be done for end-game bosses, I think. Else they loose their uniqueness.


Anyway, the key would be random spells (and a bunch of them), not a cycle of spells. And give the players something to predict which (one-hit-kill) attack is coming next, otherwise it'd be too random to win..
I think TQ gave enough hints to predict attacks though.

[Atomic]

Lol, yeah. The bosses are so silent in TQ, they should yell at you! "I'LL RIP YOU TO SHREDS!!!", that kind of stuff.

Well, there was some boss dialogue in TQ, but it was generally limited to a single phrase spoken at the beginning of the encounter (if that). More taunts throughout the battle would be a cost efficient, easily implementable addition that would add enjoyment for players, I think. It just gives more personality to unique enemies.

[Renevent]

Hades actually talks smack most of the fight I believe.

[ASYLUM101]

Hades actually talks smack most of the fight I believe.

Lol, yeah. The machae heroes had several taunts which were kinda cool.

[Malpheas]

Lol, yeah. The machae heroes had several taunts which were kinda cool.

Just a little off topic, but goblins in Sacred 1 had the best smack talk EVER.

and anyone who places what game this quote is from gets a cookie:

"Welcome to your doom!"; as a hint it was a very basic voice over in an era where voice overs did not exist largely.

[djolar]

I think interactive bosses and boss fights with different stages are the way to make them more interesting.

I'm imagining some of the good boss fights like in God of War except without the quicktime events.

For example you are fighting a boss in the first stage and he has this giant axe. So you beat him down to a third and he starts swinging wildly with that axe. You have to position yourself so that when he wildly swings at you, he hits a column instead causing part of the roof to collapse on him causing him to go down to half health and run up some stairs to a balcony.

On the balcony he throws chunks of stone down on you. You have to get him to drop the stones on some fountains that you have to damage to expose the water line. Once he drops the stones on both fountains water lines the pressure builds up and water spurts out through cracks in the wall washing the boss and you to a third stage in a room with mirrors.

Smash the mirrors and the shards will reflect light into the room and temporarily blind the boss as you beat him down better when he's vulnerable. I wouldn't do the cheap re-spawning mirrors once you break them. I'd rather have it take coordination with your party.

You get 3 mirrors for up to 3 vulnerable moments. If you break them all at once you only get one vulnerable moment and it adds minutes to the boss fight. If you break a mirror just as most of your party is stunned by the boss, then you waste one of your 3 vulnerable periods.

This is just a very generic example and not an actual suggestion.

[Phuncz]

You mean scripted events. That surely has a very high coolness factor but after seeying it for 10 times it gets annoying I guess. I don't know if this would work for the game in it's present state as most expensive projects almost exclusively use this, which leads me to believe it's out of reach of the games current focus.

[andreyy]

Yeah, I think you went a bit over the top, Djolar.

But the aim is the same - make boss fights stand out.

[Teslacrashed]

I'm really for making boss fights more interesting.

Take a page out of action games, ala Devil May Cry.

Example:

Fire Lord Ifrit:

Phase 1: Creates fire walls to his left and right, conjures minor pain demons that come from up/down and have attacks that can knock you around, possibly into the fire walls.

Phase 2: smaller, but sets of double fire walls with gaps spawn in all 4 directions, and he cast fireballs at you, so you have to weave in and out of the fire walls.

[yerkyerk]

I've heard a bunch of interesting proposals; but Immortal Throne already had more varying bossfights than regular TQ. A lot of bosses seal the area (Charon, Cerberus, Hades) and have special effects (Charon rises water cones through the floor and has a second, more brutal form, Cerberus does poison damage through cracks through the floor and Hades (having three forms) throws giant homing balls of Doom at you.

Are you guys looking for more variety beyond that or you just never played IT?

[Malpheas]

I've heard a bunch of interesting proposals; but Immortal Throne already had more varying bossfights than regular TQ. A lot of bosses seal the area (Charon, Cerberus, Hades) and have special effects (Charon rises water cones through the floor and has a second, more brutal form, Cerberus does poison damage through cracks through the floor and Hades (having three forms) throws giant homing balls of Doom at you.

Are you guys looking for more variety beyond that or you just never played IT?

Y'know, I keep thinking the same thing. One of my favourite fights of IT was Charon.

[rjeid]

Yerkyerk, you can't keep shooting down suggestions simply because "it already existed in TQ:IT". At that rate, why bother with Grim Dawn at all? :p

[yerkyerk]

Ow, I'm not shooting down the suggestion, I just wondered why people are suggesting to put stuff in the game that was already in Immortal Throne. Especially since they don't refer to IT as a source, but other games - it causes me to think they never played Immortal Throne.

On the other hand, if they did play IT, I wonder how they see these ideas so differently from IT as I don't see it.

If they did play IT and are aware of the improved bossfights and agree with them - I simply don't see why they don't refer to that. It's the most obvious source to point to and fits perfectly.

[rjeid]

Ow, I'm not shooting down the suggestion, I just wondered why people are suggesting to put stuff in the game that was already in Immortal Throne. Especially since they don't refer to IT as a source, but other games - it causes me to think they never played Immortal Throne.

On the other hand, if they did play IT, I wonder how they see these ideas so differently from IT as I don't see it.

If they did play IT and are aware of the improved bossfights and agree with them - I simply don't see why they don't refer to that. It's the most obvious source to point to and fits perfectly.

Ah, I completely misunderstood you. My apologies.

I agree with your original point earlier about TQ:IT having very unique boss fights. I loved them. When playing with my friends, we always looked forward to the Boss Fights since none of us are powergamey so it was often challenging (on the harder difficulty of course) and very unique.

I think suggestions for more types are good too. I'd love to see what kind of new Boss stuff the guys at Crate are coming up with. :D

[andreyy]

I did play IT. The only improvement on Charon was that "environmental" water spell. I wouldn't say it's much better than the standard TQ, it's still bland.

Some of the new forum members posting here seem to misunderstand or just have different ideas. I don't want some kind of arcade, Mario-like fighting, with lots of dodging, some stuff to solve. I'd rather just use the standard resources - the boss and his spells, minions.

Especially minions. Spawn points, hordes of monsters you have to hack through, before you get to the boss, some kind of pre-fight (the necromancer boss idea). Some shrines or other shit you have to destroy, when they appear, in order to "tone down" the boss.

The addition would be, sometimes, some scripting for the boss' actions. Like, running or teleporting around, instead of just standing in one place and waiting for you to grind him down.

+ the stages, but not in the meaning that the boss morphs X times or uses spells in some weird patterns. Refer to my idea with the palace attack, that's a good example.

Another way to spice things up, not only for the boss fights, is something I'd call mini-games. In a different thread, you suggested adding a dozen of mods - AoS, tug of war, king of the hill etc. These could be used in the normal gameplay, for certain quests or boss fights. Example - in order to summon the boss, or get to him, you need to perform some kind of ritual, so you have to defend some priests/summoners/whatever for a certain amount of time, fighting the incoming waves of monsters. Voilla! There we have a defence minigame.

[Shinrou]

The main point for me in keeping the boss fights interesting is simply by making them more varied in form of attack moves etc. in conjunction with randomizing the attack patterns somehow so you actually need to move around and adapt to the situation instead of learning what's the attack pattern and always stick to the known good ol' strategy.

I liked how the environment was used to beef up the boss fights in TQIT. But at the same time I wished they made the "safe points" more hazard on those fights somehow by adding some additional dangers.

I like the attacks that span large areas and you can't learn the pattern so it's just about using reflexes and not your memory and past experience how to dodge them. Like attacks that warn you just a little before they randomly hit some spot on the ground like some sort of meteor rain.

Also, give like every boss a way to fight ranged classes more efficiently so I don't feel bored kiting the bosses down before they even get to scratch me. It feels very unrewarding to drop the boss that was just about running and kiting with no risk involved. The bosses should feel like bosses to EVERY type of classes available.

[Malpheas]

At this point you're skirting the line between interest, harder than normal boss fights and scripted guaranteed wins.

That being said: I agree that there should be something done to limit a variety of different classes. What that is? No idea. Probably the environment, mostly.

As well, in HC Diablo II, Duriel was one of the scariest fights ever. EVER. Close quarters, holy freeze and charge. OMG!

[yerkyerk]

Duriel was a pain indeed.

How about an attack that sends out two spine colomns to the player; but instead of firing them straight at the player, they go in a 45 degree angle and stay up. So the player won't be able to kite effectively anymore because he's being blocked on both sides by a wall of spikes..

Ah, there's tons of things to think off, the question is what really works and is feasible..

[Starkrun]

Cerberus is the one fight i dread in TQIT, its nearly unfair if your not setup right for the normal player. Cerberus needs prior knowledge of the boss, the right equipment, massive high fast damage and quick reflexes. He above all monsters is what i feared.

This makes me anxious and willing to cheat just to bypass the fight... if i have to reload more then 5 times to beat a boss i feel its not right. I am nowhere near a hardcore gamer, nor do i farm... i spend skill points stupidly and never do my stats right, Im your average gamer that likes to play and have fun.

Now even the one time i focused on making a class and did everything right, farmed the hell out of everything i could and have top of the line gear... Cerberus still whooped my ass in TQIT... i reverted to the pattern and high damage and drinking more pots then I could afford. basically antifun...

Every other fight was fun, even the cyclops, which was basically ranged attack... impossible with a melee unless you spent extra time leveling up and really beefed up your defense and blocking... but there was a place to escape too... it made it doable... even if the rubber band trick wasn't there wyou could use geometry to help you...

basically I don't like frustration ((i will never EVER play Demon's Souls unless its next to free and Jesus hands it to me)) in my games, i like a fun relaxing journey though a story that gets my blood flowing. Mass Effect is such a title... relaxing and exciting all in one, entirely beatable no matter who you spec and there are only a few places i needed to reload more then a few times.

Diablo 2 was given a free pass since the game was fully random gen and without the static landscape i was able to trick myself into believing it was a new area.. so it was nice, same for hellgate: london some bosses were insane, but again i could level up without the feeling of boredom looming over my shoulder from the random gen.

[LeonResEvil2]

Anti-characters would basically be characters built to exploit the weaknesses of player character builds. If you have a melee build, the boss is an archer that can dart away. Archer class, and your boss is now a charger that dodges your shots and tries to get up close and personal. Summoner, and your boss can possess your summonings. Etc for other classes and builds. These bosses could either be late-game mini-bosses and generals, or could be reoccurring nemeses that get away one way or another just before you finish them off. It would possibly be difficult to create these types of bosses, and they may turn out to be very powerful if your character build ignores covering your inherent weaknesses, but I feel they would provide a fun, strong challenge that would be very memorable, instead of Giant Skeleton 103 With Giant Axe. I prefer the idea of making these boss-nemesis characters reoccurring, with specific names to the Anti-build, and the characters would possibly grow right along with your characters, leading to epic struggles and memorable story elements. These bosses could be written into the story, or just randomly appear as challenge points as you go through the levels.

However, I agree that the boss battles in TQ (even IT) were not necessarily boring, but exhausting in pattern and whittling. I have gotten by Hades without having to use potions (Guardian class I think). The hardest boss I have faced has probably been Talos, just because he has SO much health to take out, and he can deal such damage from long range.
Meanwhile, some of the most ANNOYING boss battles have been in the newest Prince of Persia. Fight the same bosses again and again, if you fail then they regain most or all of their health, and just know what attacks they will do, counter, and attack. It is arduous, repetitive, and annoying. I mention this because some people have mentioned the idea of 'do a series of steps, actions, and such to beat a boss'. I like the idea of opening a gate, destroying an object, clearing a room of summonings, but not dropping something on a boss, luring the boss to hit a column, pushing the boss into something, etc. Trying to fight against the AI is horrible, and the case of that which sticks out in my mind is Prince of Persia. Luring the big boss guy to his scripted death point flat out stinks. So, I hope those situations are avoided. I would prefer bosses that take some skill, and strength, to overcome. Learning the pattern and avoiding attacks gets old. A boss with a one-hit kill used to seem powerful to you, until you learn the signal, avoid it completely, and proceed to beat him down like the sissy girl he is. That is not a memorable boss, really. My suggestions are somewhat random AI, attacks that could instant kill but still cause damage if avoided mostly, and boss abilities that negate rushing. If the boss sees you coming, and doesn't want you up close, then the boss should force-push you back, summon up a bone wall between you and him, throw down a shield, something to that nature. As mentioned earlier I believe, don't make bosses just supped-up versions of regular enemies, give the bosses distinguishing elements and abilities. Transformations, summonings, adjustments to the player, just something that isn't seen from the other bread-and-butter enemies. A colorful lightning bolt is still a lightning bolt, and life drain is still life drain. I guess, to make the bosses better, put less in the game, but refine each one to make them more interesting, and give each one a larger group of attacks to work with. Fill out the rest of the ranks with General types, that are more powerful versions of enemies, and maybe with some attacks that hint to what the Bosses can do (but not weaker exact-copies).
Anyway, I've gone on too long, I'll stop now.

[eisprinzessin]

I would prefer bosses that take some skill, and strength, to overcome. Learning the pattern and avoiding attacks gets old. A boss with a one-hit kill used to seem powerful to you, until you learn the signal, avoid it completely, and proceed to beat him down like the sissy girl he is. That is not a memorable boss, really.
Good point! One boss fight I still remember is, when I protected my party against a special attack of him. The AI realised that it became useless, and came up with previously unused attacks. I was shocked. :eek:

[alexei]

Good point! One boss fight I still remember is, when I protected my party against a special attack of him. The AI realised that it became useless, and came up with previously unused attacks. I was shocked. :eek:

Huh? Which boss that is? I wanna try him.

[eisprinzessin]

Sorry alexei, that boss fight is in Final Fantasy Tactics ... I wrote about a party but no single hero. ;) First the hero Ramza fights Wiegraf one-on-one, once he retreats your party enters, Wiegraf returns and transforms into the devil Velius and is accompanied by a few demons ... one of the most challenging fights in the game.

[alexei]

Oh..too bad then. If there is such boss that run around and change tactic in TQ or other arpg, that would be awesome :). Here we discuss about how boss fight should be, how it should be tough and how to make it beyond tough, I hope nobody whine when tough boss fight become reality and passing the boss is such a hardship.

And I agree, Duriel is a pain to fight. I usually gather item that 'reduce half freeze time' and 'frost resistance' gear to fight him. It's just normal mode though.

[Malpheas]

Sorry alexei, that boss fight is in Final Fantasy Tactics ... I wrote about a party but no single hero. ;) First the hero Ramza fights Wiegraf one-on-one, once he retreats your party enters, Wiegraf returns and transforms into the devil Velius and is acompanied by a few demons ... one of the most challenging fights in the game.

Man, that was one of the hardest fights EVER. That almost turned me off of FFTactics.