Proper scaling for skills

[Hege]

I'm assuming there will be attributes like strength, intelligence, dexterity etc. and I'm hoping that skills don't only scale on their flat base values per level but also with the attributes. In point and click games I'm always disturbed by those skills that become useless on last difficulties and don't gain any real bonus damage from anything. It would also be useful if the benefits would be showed, for example: "lightning bolt thing(+1347 | Benefits from: Intelligence, Lightning damage %)".

[eisprinzessin]

The attributes are Cunning, Physique and Spirit now. Cunning boosts your damage.

[Nightmare]

@ Hege thats a really good idea hopefully they do show that stuff

[Nxt]

In TQ and once you reach the maximum number of skill points in any given skill, %age based skills scaled indirectly as your characters (for buff) and ennemies (for debuff) get stronger. Fixed value skills scaled with your attributes and "+x% damage" bonus on your equipment.

Pets, however, scaled only at the beginning of a new difficulty level (or with the help of some very specialized pieces of equipment that force you to trade DPS or survivability against pet bonuses). It was quite awkward IMHO, especially with the added 4th act of Immortal Throne in normal difficulty where most pets feels like a wasted investment.

So, why not getting rid of that difficulty level scaling for pets and replacing it with bonuses based on the invoker attributes :
- Cunning giving %age bonuses to all damage related pets characteristics (base and skills damages, attack and casting speed, normal and critical hit rates),
- Physique giving %age bonuses to all defense related pets characteristics (HP and HP regen, armor, avoid attacks, maybe movement speed),
- Spirit giving %age bonuses to pets energy and energy regen.

It seems easier that way to maintain pets efficiency and durability through the course of the whole game, including new content added in extensions.

[ASYLUM101]

@NXT

That's an interesting idea, not sure if it work at all though. That would be something you'd have to test quite a lot to make it work.

[eisprinzessin]

So, why not getting rid of that difficulty level scaling for pets and replacing it with bonuses based on the invoker attributes
Sorry, that cannot work well. Technically it will certainly work, but pets will most likely get the wrong boost. If the evoker wants to push Spirit for himself, then his tank pet (if any) does not get enough boost through Physique. Didn't find much information on this, but it seems Crate has already taken care of this:
[TQ] just had a crappy leveling system for pets. It was really sort of an oversight with the original way in which pets were implemented. We tried to overcome it with a hacky fix but ultimately, it left something to be desired. The new way in which we spawn monsters (http://www.titanquest.net/tq-forum/threads/32316-Reward-discoverers-with-a-greater-challenge?p=365249#post365249) has carried over to pets, making it much easier to balance them so that they do not become obsolete in higher levels / difficulties.

[medierra]

We've attempted to solve the pet issue by having pet level based on character level. So, pets gain attributes and become more powerful with you as you level up. They also have innate skills that level with them and often provide bonuses such as +%total damage, to help scale the rest of their skills. Putting skill points into the pet, provides mostly % based modifiers that make your pet more powerful at any given level. Then of course there are the skill-tree unlockable skills, which will be boosted by the pet's attributes and innate skills.

[Nxt]

Thanks for the answers :)

So some sort of continuous pet scaling will indeed be implemented, that's very good news !

[CutterJohn]

We've attempted to solve the pet issue by having pet level based on character level. So, pets gain attributes and become more powerful with you as you level up. They also have innate skills that level with them and often provide bonuses such as +%total damage, to help scale the rest of their skills. Putting skill points into the pet, provides mostly % based modifiers that make your pet more powerful at any given level. Then of course there are the skill-tree unlockable skills, which will be boosted by the pet's attributes and innate skills.

I've often felt one of the major issues with diablotypes, and rpgs in general, is how spells are always are always upgraded purely by stats and talent points, while weapon skills are upgraded by those, as well as the weapon.

In my mind it makes caster weapons pointless stat sticks, and leads to issues with scaling. Plus it just gets rid of the finding a badass weapon part of game for casters.

When I talk about scaling, here's an example from d2..

Paladin skill vengeance - +70% to each elemental damage at level 1. That scales with you forever, in the beginning with your ten damage axe, you'll do 31 damage. In the end game with your 100 damage axe, you'll do 310 damage.

But then you go to a sorceress. Say, Fire bolt. At level 1, thats 3-6 damage. At high levels... its still 3-6 damage. Maybe you'll have some + elemental damage mods, or + skill point modifiers that affect it, but its still not going to scale much off of that.

Now granted, a single point vengeance isn't going to be your main skill, since if you maxed it you'd be doing 700 damage with that axe instead of 310. There is still a huge benefit in leveling it. But with 1 point it can serve as a useful backup against a monster with immunities. Fire bolt, on the other hand, will always be completely, and totally useless, sitting there at 3-6 damage.

So.. Imagine if pets and spells scaled off of the casters equipped weapons in addition to skills and pet stats.

Pet skill level 1 - Deals 20% of your weapon damage, inherits 200% of your chest piece armor class.
Pet skill level 10 - Deals 50% of your weapon damage, inherits 400% of your chest armor class.

Generic fire spell level 1 - Deals +50% of weapon damage
Generic fire spell level 10 - Deals +150% of weapon damage

With a 100 damage magic staff, your 1 point wonder mud crabs would be doing 20 damage per hit, and your hot potato spell would be doing 150 damage per shot. Not great, but not useless either.


Basically, by scaling with weapon damage like weapon skills do, you can keep more options open as secondary skills in case you need some utility or an alternate damage type to take on an immunity or something. Sure, they shouldn't be terribly powerful, but they'd be a lot more powerful than they otherwise would be.


Oh, and if you do it for spells(and have the damage type based staffs/wands) you could do other fun stuff. Fire based spells would get a bonus off a fire based staff, like 10% more damage, but ice/lightning/etc spells would suffer a 10% hit. In this way you could focus your character more. Maybe high level staffs could do multiple damage types, thus giving bonus to multiple spell schools.

[Scryer]

I would love to see scaling based on weapons similar to how Diablo 3 scales skills.

It just seems like the most logical move.

[eisprinzessin]

Hi CutterJohn - welcome to the forums ;)

I've often felt one of the major issues with diablotypes, and rpgs in general, is how spells are always are always upgraded purely by stats and talent points, while weapon skills are upgraded by those, as well as the weapon. [...]

So.. Imagine if pets and spells scaled off of the casters equipped weapons in addition to skills and pet stats.
TQ has caster weapons (well items in general), which boost a specific element. TQ also has some items to boost your pets. I'd expect, that Crate does not break this ... or if then by replacing this by something more badass.

There is "just" an issue, that skills scale differently in TQ, so that those scaling poorly are only effective during some parts of the game.

[medierra]

We have added a new % of Weapon Damage attribute for skills that, as the name suggests, allows them to inflict a percentage of extra damage based on your default attack damage as influenced by your weapon and other bonuses. Not all skills use this but it is helpful in allowing us to balance certain skills this way where it makes sense.

On the other hand, I don't think it would be good to make all class skills and pets totally dependent on finding a good weapon and there are methods by which we can improve the scale-ability of non-weapon damage skills.

One thing we've done is too give all skills 10 "ultimate" levels. These are levels beyond the normal cap that can be accessed through +skill equipment. In TQ, skills only had 4-6 ultimate levels.

We've also made more of an effort to plan out magical equipment bonuses that will help scale the power of skills in higher levels.

Pet level is also tied to player level now, not skill level. So pets level up with you and gain attributes with each level.

[Scryer]

What if skills scaled with weapons with respect to weapon damage and weapon attack speed?

For example the % spell / skill damage is based on the weapon and the % cool down on a skill / spell is based on weapon speed?

Or if there's a casting time, base the casting time on weapon speed as well?

So players that want heavy damage weapons will generally get a longer cool down on their skills / spells.

I think you should try and base as much scaling on direct gear compliments as possible.

Let's say if you take a wizard-type class, they could choose a staff with heavy damage to increase their spell damage but it'd increase their skills cool down, or they could alternatively get a faster striking weapon like a wand (typically one handed) and deal less damage but much quicker due to a smaller cool down.

[eisprinzessin]

Ah - I don't know ... :undecided:

Edit: The weapons would have too much influence. Furthermore, as all masteries will have skills that deal damage, the best builds would require fast weapons.

[mamba]

What if skills scaled with weapons with respect to weapon damage and weapon attack speed?

For example the % spell / skill damage is based on the weapon and the % cool down on a skill / spell is based on weapon speed?

Or if there's a casting time, base the casting time on weapon speed as well?

I would not go too far here, I do not see why this should be based on weapon stats - not just from a logical perspective but also a gameplay perspective.

I am fine with weapons affecting skills (skill damage) somewhat as otherwise skills become obsolete compared to high end gear, but I would not do this for all skills or bind them together this closely (cast speed, cooldown).

[EmperorZanus]

I think it would be cool to explore this: Skills gain a plus to effectiveness (damage, range, whatever) based on a selected stat(s) for that skill. I would also like to see Skills affected by weapon damage or DPS. This would allow me as a player to stack certain stats if I want and create my own synergies not based on the skill tree itself. I am always looking for skill customization.

[durruti]

well, scryer, i've got to object there. you want a truckload of independent influences on skill efficiency in an arpg and no skill scaling the same way as any other, some even not at all at best - i'm exaggerating... you want your brain occupied with a whole lot more convoluted stuff than just the binary choice of slow & more damage vs fast & less damage making both general combat and skill damage/efficiency dependent on a single source.

:undecided:

i dunno, i'm probably overreacting. it's just, please, take diablo 3's design decisions with a pin... errr... with a pint of salt is all i'm asking.

[Roryn]

Pet level is also tied to player level now, not skill level. So pets level up with you and gain attributes with each level.

So, how pets works now, talking about skills? Just one point and you have the pet that scales in level with you?

[eisprinzessin]

But you also benefit from sinking additional skill points into your pet - see: Masteries > Occult: Hellhound

[Malpheas]

i dunno, i'm probably overreacting. it's just, please, take diablo 3's design decisions with a pin... errr... with a pint of salt is all i'm asking.

Just a heads up here, Scryer is likely the largest fan of DIII on this board and advocates parallels between GD and D3 even in the face of developer statement otherwise.

[eNTi]

please... no scaling by weapon dps. that's one of the saddest excuses for lack of a better idea ever conceived.