Will Grim dawn be able to achieve what no action rpg has before? Modding & Multiplaye

[Soulmancer]

One thing that has bugged me about action rpg's is that none of them have been able to achieve both a great multiplayer system as well as a good editor or toolset. It always seems action rpg's have to choose between an editor/modding tools or multiplayer yet never both.

Diablo 2: good multiplayer, no modding support/no support for private realms
Titan's Quest: crappy multiplayer system "no servers", toolset editor
Sacred 2: Good multiplayer, no editor or any modding capability
Diablo 3: Good multiplayer, no official support for modding
Torchlight: No multiplayer, great editor

I keep waiting for the combination of the two!

Grim Dawn can really set itself apart from Diablo 3 and have a competetive edge... Diablo 3 will offer no official modding support. can they pull off a good multiplayer system " official servers? support for private serversm like NWN2 and Savage 2? or a system in place that allows you to use the official servers to play mods and user created content?" as well as a powerful, flexible and user friendly editor in Grim Dawn.

They tried to do both with Titan's Quest, but was unable to deliver both with very high quality? TQ multiplayer system lacked any kind of server system and the editor wasn't very user friendly and felt awkward. Do they have the ambitions for Grim dawn to pull off both and still have a great game?

Because if so I'll prolly be more excited about this game than D3.

[alexei]

Providing good multiplayer would be epic difficulty for dev since it involve more than half million to come up with secure server. If we the community could spread the good word of GD to everyone and GD sales profit enough for a secure server, future content could come with great multiplayer support. Other than getting that server, multiplayer only meaningful to play with people you know. And with secure server, meaning that we can have a real item trading community :) wow I hope there is guy who kind enough to offer a secure server ;p

I'm sure modding support, tools and editors would be greatly improve, as you can read at the Developer Section.

[Phuncz]

I'd rather have good multiplayer than good modtools. An ARPG game without a decent MP is a bigger loss then some mods that take a long time to complete and thus people will steer away from the game before mods come out.

[Roros]

In terms of security and ease of cheating, I'd rather forfeit that in favor of moddability and multiplayer, primarily because I play these games with people I already know anyway and cheating/griefing isn't an issue.

I won't stomp my feet if it turns out I'm the minority though. I can see it being pretty iffy to not be able to play online without running into people with duped gear and broken characters.

[Malpheas]

Diablo 2: good multiplayer, no modding support/no support for private realms <EDIT> in the United States

There are private realms out there that individuals have made. But they're generally not hosted in the US. And from what I understand, Diablo II has quite a neat tool set for editing; most of it found at PhrozenKeep.

[ttangx]

I'd rather have good multiplayer than good modtools. An ARPG game without a decent MP is a bigger loss then some mods that take a long time to complete and thus people will steer away from the game before mods come out.

That sounds like a valid point, I'd most likely play with friends anyway though (over LAN) so neither of these too points are too big of a factor for me.

[heron]

dungeon seige 2 - good multiplayer and modding tools.

[ASYLUM101]

I'd rather have good multiplayer than good modtools. An ARPG game without a decent MP is a bigger loss then some mods that take a long time to complete and thus people will steer away from the game before mods come out.

TQ was pretty successful, and the MP wasn't great at all. Extremely imbalanced, but the overall gameplay was great so it didn't make a difference.

You really shouldn't have to choose between these two in a game. My primary dislike for TL was the lack of MP. I almost *always* play LAN or online. No MP means it doesn't get played often. :) Seeing how Crate is doing so far, is telling me we'll get both eventually.

[GermanZombie]

With RPG's modding doesn't work really well for multiplayer because it is too easy to mess with or break game mechanics. Multiplayer, especially competitive multiplayer doesn't work well with modding. FPS's are able to do it because for the most part it is just maps. The only big multiplayer RPG I can think of with extensive modding is NeverWinter Nights. An that was a co-operative RPG with little to no real competitive components, at least it never seemed like that to me. I feel that most of the modding I would like to see for this game is gonna be in maps, and maybe some custom models and textures.

[zyklop]

Modding tools are excellent for building up a longlasting fan base - the Elder Scrolls games are the best example for that. So i would prefere it against a multiplayer architecture, that needs secure servers and a big amount of money for monthly support.

[Soulmancer]

"There are private realms out there that individuals have made. But they're generally not hosted in the US. And from what I understand, Diablo II has quite a neat tool set for editing; most of it found at PhrozenKeep"

Heh, I know, I run a private server. However this is against Blizzards terms of service and is essentially illegal... As such PhrozenKeep and half the modding community doesn't support or endorse private realms "which are required if you hope to have a popular multiplayer mod"

And yes, Phrozen Keep and modders have produced a number of useful tools for Diablo 2, though these are not supported by Blizzard... As such a simple update patch renders a lot of tools and mod plugins useless and it also took many years for these tools to actually be developed after Diablo 2's release.

It seems they'll be doing nothing different in regards to Diablo 3 in terms of private server support or modding support.

As for Dungeon Siege I never actually played the game. Isn't it more like a strategy rpg like NWN then a hack n slash action rpg? I heard the editor was pretty frustrating and needlessly complicated to do much of anything.

[Roros]

Dungeon Siege is just as straight forward and actiony as any other arpg, the only thing is that you can have up to 3 henchmen following you around, which are essentially the same as the player's character in terms of having their own skilltree, inventory, and the works. You can assume control of them directly as well.

[Malpheas]

And yes, Phrozen Keep and modders have produced a number of useful tools for Diablo 2, though these are not supported by Blizzard... As such a simple update patch renders a lot of tools and mod plugins useless and it also took many years for these tools to actually be developed after Diablo 2's release.

The tools are still being used for 1.13. So the tools are still good. The hosted private servers are illegal in the US and a couple of European countries, but not generally everywhere. Which is why they are hosted legally in places like Germany. Blizzard just doesn't support mods made on their game.

HOWEVER, the modding community, by and large, make the game better than it ever was vanilla.

As well, Dungeon Siege II was actiony as well. Roros is pretty much correct. Never tried to use the editor, so I don't know.

[Soulmancer]

"The tools are still being used for 1.13. So the tools are still good"

Some tools, the majority of coding plugins that are used to mod hardcoded features are pretty much limited to the version they were created with... D2MOD systems was a huge one for example that only functioned with 1.10 and was a very powerful modding plugin.

[Hunter_Killers]

Blizzard pretty much follows the unwritten rule that modding is allowed just not supported by the EULA "say nothing do nothing".

The only reason multiplayer mods don't work with D2 is because the servers aren't locally hosted over battle.net like for ex. Starcraft that 90% of the mods worked on official servers if they used the latest version with or without memory patches.

I think actually having an official means with the toolkit to create mods in GD will make it controllable enough to work online with the same service providing the game isn't limited to remote hosting like D2 which is really the main limiting factor that could crop up.

Any kind of cheating the toolkit might enable could probobly be negated by CRC checks between the host and clients, if something doesn't match up just don't allow connection.

[yerkyerk]

You can only play online if the database.arz match up (I think), which means godlike items won't work anyway. With TQ, there were several sandbox items left in the database, which people use for online play (chrisrelic and such). Another problem would be that players can and will easily access any existing item in the game with cheating (that includes the Hallowed Revenant Crown of the Magus).

Modding is not just not allowed, it's officially forbidden by Blizzard. They're generally not stupid enough to take any action against innocent modders though.

Don't care much about D3 toolset, as D3 will have battle.net, which probably outvalues mods for me.

[Ironpunta]

I am very much against modding and cheating but in my life as a gamers i learn that is impossible to stop them! Also in the Sacred 2 official server with an official ladder there are a lot of cheaters:furious:

[yerkyerk]

I am very much against modding and cheating
What do you have against modding if it was not used for cheating?

[Soulmancer]

I think people are really getting modding and hacking mixed up...

When I say modding, I am talking about user created content... not hacks and exploits, which are entirely different; furthermore, it is not against the terms of service to mod Diablo 2, they just official don't support it and private realms are illegal... They've even publicly said there is nothign wrong with developing mods for Diablo 2... it's hacks that they are against and the two have nothing to do with one another.

[Kaets]

Modding in TQ is the main reason why I sticked to that game till today. From minor changes like skins or total revisions of skill trees, modding has tied me to that game.
The second reason was the multiplayer. Running through the game and farming with friends over VoiP (Teamspeak or Skype) was funny as hell.
That´s probably why I am eager to play GD than D3.

[Malpheas]

Y'know, I betcha that the D3 modding community will be out before too long after the game has been released.

Apparently SC2 modding is supposed to be quite good.

[Kaets]

Y'know, I betcha that the D3 modding community will be out before too long after the game has been released.

Wait, there will be modding tools for D3? I didn´t know that.

[alexei]

I think he means that, modding tools that being developed by user/fans.

And yes, Phrozen Keep and modders have produced a number of useful tools for Diablo 2, though these are not supported by Blizzard... As such a simple update patch renders a lot of tools and mod plugins useless and it also took many years for these tools to actually be developed after Diablo 2's release.


sudden jump into the discussion ;). Been following it.

[Malpheas]

Yeah, pretty much. But the no LAN really forces people to make that choice about multiplayer. Which is a shame I think.