7 basic "Class" Sources

[cybrim]

I have found that there are 7 different aspects that could be further divided.

Magic (Sorcerer/Wizard/Magician)
Psionics (Psychic)
Blessed (Cleric/Palladin/Exorcist)
Rage (Berserker/Barbarian/Gladiator)
Nature Imbued (Elementalist/Druid/Shaman)
Life Student (Scholar/Monk/Diplomat)
Tech User (Engineer/Scientist/Mechanic)

I haven't been on in a while but I think that these would be excellent to mix and mash like in TQ. The "()" represent possible skill trees within said Class.
The only 2 I think need explanation are the Tech User and the Life Student:
Life Student:
Scholars could learn how to kill enemies from studying them (kill so many learn their weaknesses) after investing in a specific school. Monks could also practice discipline and self control to better handle combat situations through fine tuning themselves with the study of self improvement. Diplomats could convince enemies to join their cause through influence, bribery or intimidation.
Tech User:
Engineers could build devices that serve them in various ways, hack ATMs and other electronic devices as well as upgrade equipment. Scientists can use chemistry to create potions and poisons as well as discover enemy weaknesses through study (as a piece of equipment a "lab rat" cage or test tube collectible from enemy drops). Mechanics can repair equipment, breakdown traps (for later reuse), disable machines/computers.

[i.n.s.a.n.e]

Psionics (Psychic)

Yes, please! =)

[matthewfarmery]

Yes, please! =)

that would be cool, maybe for one of the expansions, but that gets my vote too

[hooby]

How did you come up with that 7 "aspects"?
How do you define "aspect" and what does define each of your 7 aspects?

For example what you call "Magic" is something that I'd rather call "Artillery" - the typical glass canon, heavy (area) damage on a distance, but fragile.

What you call "blessed" mostly seems a mixture of two aspects to me: healing and support.

You are missing some aspects, like stealth and defense (the typical front-line grunt/fighter) and the typical ranged aspect.

So I'm really not sure how your classification system works...

[yerkyerk]

I wonder how you "found" it too, as there seems to be a lot missing from any perspective.

Is it another description of archetypical RPG classes?

[eisprinzessin]

I'd pool Magic, Psionics, Blessed and Nature Imbued into Supernatural. :p It's tempting to devise such a system, but does it help in any way?

[hooby]

I'd pool Magic, Psionics, Blessed and Nature Imbued into Supernatural. :p It's tempting to devise such a system, but does it help in any way?

I don't think it helps to define groups by their flavour text. I mean if healing abilities come from being blessed by the gods, or from magic, or from being an expert in the use of healing plants is purely descriptive text / explanation.

This only seems useful if you want to do some analyses on common mainstream high fantasy stereotypes, but is not of meaning in any other context.

If you want a system that really does help (when designing a game) you need to classify by gameplay aspects. Gameplay aspects would any class mechanics that do have influence on how a class plays.

I'd say a list of those would look somewhat like this:

armor protection
evasion
block
resistance
melee
ranged
point damage
area damage
damage over time
fast weak attacks
slow heavy attacks
armor penetration
physical damage
elemental damage
healing
strengthening buffs
protecting buffs
weakening debuffs
reducing protection debuffs
pets
stealth
traps
...

and so on and so forth...

Most classes would then be a (balanced) combination of multiple of those aspects.

Also which aspects are covered and how they are represented in detail (and how important/strong they are) can differ very much, from game to game.

[cybrim]

PLEASE READ THIS... IT EXPLAINS IT ALL IF YOU READ IT ALL...

Hey babes, these are "SOURCES OF POWER" (not ***ki** "classes"), a Divine source is a "blessing", Magic isn't "artillery" it is what ever it is trained to be, Techies are Engineers, mechanics and scientists... as far as stealth and defense go they are NOT "SOURCES OF POWER" but instead ways POWERS CAN BE USED...
You can use your powers as you see fit...
Take "invisibility" it is a magical technique or cloaking technology used for stealth... even technology requires a source for it's power... because even thieves and rogues in a post apocalypse are still visible until they use technology or powers to become invisible, sure they are sneakier but they are NOT invisible for no freaking reason hence the "SOURCE OF POWER" idea.
I actually thought of reasons for certain things to have certain abilities.
Defenders take a lot of damage... they NEED RAGE/or technology/or some source to give them the ability to take the damage for the group and return it 999,999,999 fold... (overkill much? FATALITY!).
Using this method people can build the characters the way they want to and expand further by reaching across several sources!

Titan Quest "Class" equivalent sources: Warfare & Defense= Rage, Dream= Psychic, Nature Earth & Storm= Force of Nature, Spirit= Magic(/Blessing If for good... unless there is an evil God?), Rogue & Hunting= Technology

[cybrim]

I'd pool Magic, Psionics, Blessed and Nature Imbued into Supernatural. :p It's tempting to devise such a system, but does it help in any way?

Look I love you as a friend but you are coming on a bit strong... oh wait wrong reply...
Titan Quest separated their control of "NATURE" into EARTH, NATURE and STORM... they have different ideals behind them, my idea separates into broader categories for REAL differences in how the powers are manifested!
Not all psychics can shoot lightning... and not all mages are telepathic... VERY DIFFERENT! Oh and a blessing could be invisibility! Or Psychic suggestion could be "you don't sense anything over in this direction" thus enemies can't harm you unless they are strong enough to resist the suggestion because they wouldn't know you are there! OMG! A mage has to chant... a psychic focuses upon it for a little longer and even without the ability to speak can manifest his/her powers!

[cybrim]

To Hooby:

Thank you, but even you agree that each of those ideas you posted may be manifested by different methodologies, whether by technology, psychic manipulation, magic, Divine blessing or harmony with the force of nature different methods can create similar results...
Rage is "physical" but it is also a state of mind... a blinding state of mind that may be strong enough to help you resist psionic effects... or you may be angry that you can't say a word and a fire ball appears... but you can tear down many things... attack faster, harder and more precisely!
Being a student of life (I love MONKS!)
by studying new and different things you can find ways around obstacles, Tacticians, Lawyers, Rogues, Politicians, Merchants... these are a group of people that studied something for quite a while and know how their expertise works, as for the Monk he/she tries to find a balance and there can be none with conflict afoot and there can't be peace with conflict!
The Aspect is the Method!

[cybrim]

The problem I find with most "CLASS" based games is how pathetic the character becomes... just another tumble weed.

Look at Conan the "Barbarian", Barbarian? Yes, Thief? Yes, King? At a certain point, Liberator? Heck YEAH!

Good characters have many skills from different aspects of life and the idea of a "Class" destroys the individuality of characters because only those with "A PERFECT BUILD" do well in CRAP games. You are who you are, yeah the perfect Tactician is the Prom Queen/Homecoming Queen (you have to be popular after all), the Barbarian is the Captain of the Football team (even though he is a brute he is still a part of your high school's aristocracy... am I the first to notice this conflict? Mine was a cool guy... but really brutal). This is the reality but they are deeper people than the credit you give them... life goes on after high school reality hits and they learn humility or maybe it happened before hand!
If we don't break the cycle of "Class" orientation it won't happen and we will always play the games of our fathers...

[eisprinzessin]

You've lost me there. :confused: And regarding your last post ... are you opposed to classes now?

[cybrim]

I LOVE TITAN QUEST! I am OPPOSED TO games that LIMIT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT with "BUILDS" that destroy the enjoyment of the game itself (MMOS do this all of the time for me...).
Here are some things about games I have enjoyed "+" and DISLIKED "-"
+Titan Quest: "Class" System (It GAVE more options and didn't take away from the experience).
+Legend Hand of God: Dynamic combat system (it didn't say "Critical" it showed it through animation and an obvious increase in damage)
-Legend hand of God & Diablo II: Equipment locked by "PATH" or "CLASS" bullcrap if I can hold it I can use it... just not as effective... if you can't hold something because you are "not a warrior" you DESERVE CHARACTER DEATH... hell basically (no matter which game) cut loose and I'd use whatever weapon was best at the time...
+Titan Quest: Completion of quests gave different bonuses other than XP...
+FATE: All Weapons had proficiencies, you could learn any spell.
+FATE: Renown system!
-FATE: Not much character customization beyond stats...
+Torchlight: Class system with "General" Skills included.
-Torchlight: No Multiplayer (TL2 has it)
+Loki Heroes of Mythology: Different starting locations depending on "class"
+Loki Heroes of Mythology: Blacksmith, Skill/Offering system.
+D3: Male/Female OPTION! lol MANMAZON! (not really but still laughable).
-D3: Options taken away (auto character builds/progression... WTF?)

Honorable (and detestable mentions) of different styles:

+Two Worlds 2: (Really) You can learn everything but it really was quite better than the first/ Solid gameplay regardless of personal preferences.
+Two Worlds 2: Wild animals... come on real animals... and quite a variety.
-Two Worlds (The original): Dumb skill system... yeah you could learn everything but it was really a crappy game/design... I did enjoy it at first.
+Dungeons & Dragons 3/3.5/Pathfinder: You can go prestige or take another class upon gaining a level (up to 3 different classes!) and effectively build a character (EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK) worthy of taking on DemiGods all while having a unique character.

Yes there is a lot of game play effect in here but it is just as essential as the class system that is the character's medium to the game world. It would be nice to have options like the +'s with out taking on the burden of the -'s a lot of games have + in mind but feel that a - is needed for "balance". There is NO NEED FOR A CRAP SYSTEM, if a game has something that isn't enjoyable i.e. PLAYER DEATH (IT IS PART OF THE GAME!).

-HOWEVER if it is a BAD INVENTORY SYSTEM (Weight & space isn't bad! But if there are restrictions that a player won't understand that would be bad), a BAD SKILL SYSTEM (SKILLS YOU WOULDN'T EVER USE/INVEST IN), OR A SYSTEM THAT MAKES AN ENEMY INVULNERABLE TO ALL DAMAGE EXCEPT 1 TYPE (NON-PHYSICAL) IS CRAP BECAUSE IT ISN'T ENJOYABLE.
These don't have an excuse in my opinion because there could have been more time spent on the enjoyability factors instead of a complex system that no one outside of a small group (of developers) is going to enjoy.

[cybrim]

That was a little off topic.
The point was good balance makes a good game, poor balance is another story.
I want Titan Quest's game play, but with MORE CHARACTER OPTIONS and I'd want to use several methods to result in similar effects (like invisibility that I mentioned earlier) because it is possible to avoid the feeling of missing out yet still maintain each character's individuality. Each "Class" needs to have it's own feel but few restrictions to avoid the lack of realism that MANY GAMES IMPLEMENT FOR NO REASON.

I DO LIKE THE DURABILITY IDEA, think about it, you hit something enough with a knife and it WILL GET DULL, CHIP and become less and less effective.

[eisprinzessin]

I didn't count, but you just went through about a dozen topics - each worth its own thread ... and for most (if not all) we have already at least one thread.

[hooby]

I'm confused now.

First you post your list an say:
The "()" represent possible skill trees within said Class.

Then you say:
Hey babes, these are "SOURCES OF POWER" (not ***ki** "classes")

So... what now?

Yeah, those are some of the most common sources of power for classes. - I mean those are the most common explanations for where characters do get certain powers from.

But actually you wouldn't really have to explain those things. I mean, "magic" should be unexplainable, mysterious... Just take the "Force" from Star Wars... explaining that some "Midochlorians" inside the blood stream where the source... sometimes it's better not to explain too much.

But games are special.
It could be that for gameplay and or balancing reasons, the developer doesn't want a mage to be able to heal, while a priest shouldn't be able to cast a fly spell.
Now without an explanation as to how "divine magic" and "arcance magic" are separate and how the users of one can't use the other - this might seem some odd or arbitrary limitation.
But if you do have a good explanation - that does fit into the setting/world the plot plays in - that gameplay/balancing limitation suddenly seem logical and self-explanatory.

And that's exactly where those different explanations (sources of power) stem from. From the need to explain gameplay limitations/rules in a way that does make them seem believable in a fantasy world.
Well, at least that's how D&D started to handle things back in the early 70ies. There might be other solutions/concepts out there, but this is the most widely known and most common one.

Still, those sources only exist to explain how certain gameplay abilities of certain characters do fit in to the game world/setting.

They are not sources of gameplay, nor are they sources of class decisions, nor are they sources of worlds/settings. First you have a setting and a class - then you create an explanation on how that class fits into the setting, by finding a suitable source for it's powers.

[cybrim]

Very good points, I think that characters are more than a "class" and are capable of "inheriting" (somehow=explained through gameplay) different Sources of Power. You can use different methodology to come up with a similar circumstance but it will not be the same as the original methodology.

1- The idea of a Source of Power is simply a way to reasonably grant abilities that will make sense in the appropriate place/time.

2- These Sources govern power/ability sets NOT SKILLS, there is a difference.

3- Sorry about the rant earlier... Some games get me really excited and others bore the crap out of me or frustrate the heck out of me.

4- I think of classes as more of a limitation and not really an explanation, sometimes the "class" is too simple when we know that the greatest characters are more than the sum of their parts but the things they do within their worlds in addition to the things they can and do accomplish.

5- I would like to have different starting locations depending on said "class", after all when you play online not everyone will have the same experience and it is easier to find common ground if you are interested in the same basic character paths. It also gives players a good reason to play through different characters... nobody wants to play the same exact thing over and over.

6- The idea for player created content is AWESOME! This expands the playability BEYOND what the devs intended and imagined.

7- Sorry if this seems like a rant.

[pts]

OR A SYSTEM THAT MAKES AN ENEMY INVULNERABLE TO ALL DAMAGE EXCEPT 1 TYPE (NON-PHYSICAL) IS CRAP BECAUSE IT ISN'T ENJOYABLE.

If there is a way to overcome it, it will just require some tactics. Do you suggest that hitting some weird multi-dimensional-ultra-master-ghost-being with a rock should work? I'm actually okay with it being either way, as long as the hurdle isn't too big. Things like this may require the player to alter his otherwise straight-lined playstyle.

For those of us who have played CoD2, we all remember the danger of running up to those moving tanks and planting explosives on them. I see two general reasons for this, the first being realism, and the second being gameplay variation (possibly why they added tanks in the first place).

Adding a boss that must be damaged by salt in some way is a great way of adding variation to the game as I see it, as long as it's not a huge hurdle to use it for any class (and if every creature isn't the same way of course :)).

I would like to have different starting locations depending on said "class", after all when you play online not everyone will have the same experience...

Playing together at level 1 in World of Warcraft (different locations per class) requires running through the half the world just to reach each other. Surely Grim Dawn won't be remotely near the size of that world, but I still wouldn't want it. I'd like to play together from minute one. But that's just me I guess :p

nobody wants to play the same exact thing over and over.

Are you sure about that?
I can watch a movie I like multiple times, play minesweeper over and over when I'm bored, play through Borderlands as a Berserker for the third time. I don't see any problem with this at all.

--------------End of quotes------------------
This whole Source of Power thing seems (haven't read it all...) to end up as the one-line text description of a class' energy-bar. If it's called rage, one assumes his character is very angry when the bar is filled, he can then use his MEAT CLEAVE ability. If the character is full of dark mana he can summon monsters all day long without being fatigued.

I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with it being named Energy universally, because everyone needs energy to operate. The big question is what happens in a very descriptive environment when you multi-class Paladin+Necromancer :rolleyes:

[cybrim]

I am NOT disagreeing, I am trying to say that there is more than one way to open a jar. If you break down these Sources you will find building tools to build characters based on the type of character you want to play, for instance D&D had "Cleric" as a class, then alignment then your 2 domains and finally your Deity (in one order or another)... which meant a cleric was THE MOST VERSATILE CLASS EVER! Thus leaving a fighter feeling like there was no thought into their depth... roar!

Titan Quest was more on track, you choose 2 (battle only) Classes that meshed up as you seen fit to build your prestige class out of...

The idea with the sources is that you create a character with a power source his available skill trees would be affected by that. You can build up your power sources like your masteries in TQ to come up with unique ability sets at the cost of most of your secondary abilities if you wished... the sources would have synergistic effects, so having a Magic and Rage combo would be beneficial because you could auto-counter with damaging knock backs while you are trying to escape your foes and recharge, the damage you take can help regenerate your MP due to a rage effect! Just as one example...

Anyone can be any class with the right combination of sources... thus opening gameplay up and some classes can be granted by different sources like a rogue could be Technology or nature (use wind to pick locks? Heck yeah!)

[eisprinzessin]

Anyone can be any class with the right combination of sources...
You can just be/play, what has been included to the game. ... and I'm still confused. You sound a little too abstract to me. Please clarify your original concern and how your idea can improve the gameplay (maybe you use TQ as an example).

[hooby]

Whatever class you play... wouldn't it be easy to just imagine what ever "source" you'd prefer for them?

I mean... I personally don't like those book-type wizards. That has to be studied in school/university kind of magic. Many games feature that kind of magic source, where you have to learn spells by heart... which is like... only the right combination of secret words can trigger some sort of magic (which then again you have to be gifted with in the first place).

I always ignore that, and imagine my wizard to gain his magical powers in a more natural/innate way. He simply has magical powers, and they needed to be trained, like an athlete has to train his body and moves. But there's no studying, books and secret words involved.

You should be able to imagine your "sources" in much the same way, I think.