Fine tuning?

[leay4]

Well as we all know (this is very likely a stupid question) are classes going to have builds which we must finely tune them appropriately to the build? I remember playing Diablo 2 and ALWAYS dieing with my necromancer because i failed to make a proper build..Does anyone know if the game will have a guide for this..? Or if there will be a fan guide lol

[eisprinzessin]

If there will be an official guide? I have no idea ... right now the game is in development. But we will certainly see some inofficial fan guides here.

I never played Diabolo, but if you played TQ, then you can expect something similar. Edit: Meaning a lot of freedom in your skill choices and being able to complete the game though. We will see how efficient builds have to be for the higher modes. (end of edit)


scroll to the bottom (http://www.grimdawn.com/about_featurelist.php)
The ability to spend money to reclaim skill and attribute points alleviates the fear and frustration of having to make early, uninformed decisions that could permanently nerf a character.
see also How will character classes work? (http://www.grimdawn.com/about_faq.php#q07)

But why do you need a guide ... I prefer to find out the mechanics myself.
I see respeccing as being a means to fix mistakes and a way to eliminate that fear of investing in a skill, deciding you don't like it, and being stuck with it.
Why would we want to allow people to make mistakes? We actually argued about this a lot when developing TQ. However, my belief is that when players feel like they can't made a bad decision, they also totally loose the satisfaction of feeling like they made a good decision. Part of the addition of these types of games is figuring out how to beat the system or how to do things better than the "other guy". Even for those playing single-player exclusively where there is no real "other guy" players still take a lot of satisfaction in feeling like maybe they figured out a better build than most people. There is also a certain satisfaction to allocating points so that you can finally use this great item you found. When you level up and can use an item it is rewarding but doesn't quite have the same level of satisfaction because you aren't directly making any sort of decision.

So, our goal is to try to minimize the degree to which bad decisions can reduce a players ability to make it through the game while still maintaining the perception that it is possible to make decisions that could result in a better or worse character build.

[matthewfarmery]

I agree with classes in D2, I also kept dying a lot, due to not having the right equipment, or not spending the points I was getting, it wasn't very balanced in some respects, as many builds seems to require stupid hard to find items to begin with, at least some of the guides I read on D2. I didn't have that problem with TQ, so hopefully GD won't be a problem as well, it would be good to be able to buy back skill points, I think this was added in TQ:IT, as I don't think the original game had it, but if you could buy back skill points from the outset, I think that would help, the system was a long time comming in D2, and I not keen on how it works in that game

but I think with a lot of alpha / beta testers, I think the classess in GD will be fine tuned, so while I would expect guides to start popping up after the game is released or sooner, I think GD will be a good game to experiment, especailly early on

[i.n.s.a.n.e]

I agree with classes in D2, I also kept dying a lot, due to not having the right equipment, or not spending the points I was getting, it wasn't very balanced in some respects, as many builds seems to require stupid hard to find items to begin with, at least some of the guides I read on D2. I didn't have that problem with TQ, so hopefully GD won't be a problem as well, it would be good to be able to buy back skill points, I think this was added in TQ:IT, as I don't think the original game had it, but if you could buy back skill points from the outset, I think that would help, the system was a long time comming in D2, and I not keen on how it works in that game

but I think with a lot of alpha / beta testers, I think the classess in GD will be fine tuned, so while I would expect guides to start popping up after the game is released or sooner, I think GD will be a good game to experiment, especailly early on


Buying the points back is already confirmed feature.

Also, there will be so many guides once the game is released, you will not know which class to play first. ;-)

[medierra]

We don't want to try to dictate how classes should be built. That is part of the exploration of the game and is for the players to discover. I also think, despite our best planning, that players would end up creating better guides than us in the long run.

I've shared your frustration in the past with D2 though and that is why we created the skill reallocation system. I remember times in D2 where I was hovering over a skill with the mouse just to read the description and then accidentally pressed it, forever losing a skill point into something I didn't even want. There were also many early skills that became totally obsolete later. We created a system of skills and modifiers in an attempt to avoid this, so that early skills wouldn't just be phased out by better, higher-level versions.

So, we probably won't release our own guides but, between reallocation, the skill and modifier system, and player guides that I am sure will appear within days of the game's release, you should be okay.

[ekopalm]

I like screwing up builds, b/c i've never played a game where after 70 hours i find out my build wasn't quite right. I typically find out after 20 or less so i'm not ashamed. I just start a new one and get going.

It's difficult to gauge an ability by a simple description. It would almost be nice (although incredibly difficult if not impossible) to demo a build. I.E. the game allowed you to demo any level 25 build or less in a scalable zone. That way you can say "well that was OP" or "you know, I don't mind dying this much."

I don't share a frustration b/c I like loosing in these kinds of games. I like picking the character I want and doing what I want and being wrong. That may be just me.

[hooby]

I just dislike if too much about a character can be changed.

If you could reset your whole skill tree and your attributes and masteries and assign everything completely new, you wouldn't ever need to create a new character to try a new build. Replay value would decrease significantly.

But the main point for me is, that the character would become a different character... It's not the same person anymore. I'm too much of a roleplayer that I could ever enjoy that. I'd need at least some quest that somehow makes it believable that the character was completely brainwashed into being someone else...

[eisprinzessin]

Well, there's the difference between a RPG and an ARPG ...
Sometimes you want to test how a skills works - in case you don't like it, then you can simply buy it back. I wouldn't like it to be any different.

[hooby]

Well, there's the difference between a RPG and an ARPG ...

I don't believe in stereotypes and strong genre-borders. I'd be totally happy with any crossovers or just games ignoring that common printing blocks.

[eisprinzessin]

I fully support what you said last, still some game mechanics demand for certain options. There could be a quest, before buying back skill points becomes available. For some players it is crucial to change their set up at a certain point/from time to time ... this is just how they enjoy playing the game.