Camera Rotation

[medierra]

With the opening of the new forums, I thought I'd kick things off by announcing that we've added camera rotation to Grim Dawn!

We're still designing the levels in such a way that camera rotation should not be necessary. So, those players who aren't interested in it, will never have to bother with it. For those that do fancy a little rotation of the camera now and then, we've found that it definitely does help emphasize the 3-dimensionality of the game and alleviates the awkwardness that you sometimes experience when forced to run down toward the bottom of the screen where view distances are shortest.

The camera rotates seamlessly when you hold the center mouse button down and then move the mouse left or right. This makes it easy to quickly turn the camera a bit while running. It is also possible to rotate the camera using the keyboard and it defaults to < and >.

One of the big benefits of the rotation is that it is now much easier and more enjoyable to play with the camera zoomed in closer to the action.

And now for a flashback to May 2006... de-da-leet-de-da-leet-de-da-leet... (flashback noise)

Targzissian posted the following to titanquest.net in May of 2006:

"So, apparently camera rotation will not be enabled at release. Then I guess I'll have to monitor the website and wait for the patch that enables it before I buy the game. I'm kind of surprised that a game that is so advanced in many ways (detailed graphics, wide screen and high resolution support, physics, grass that sways after you walk through it, loot drops that actually make sense, etc.) will release with camera controls more primitive than the original Dungeon Siege."

Not wanting Grim Dawn to be more primitive than the original Dungeon Siege, we knew camera rotation was a must. Your wait is over Targzissian, you can buy Grim Dawn and finally experience the thrilling ARPG gameplay you've been missing out on since before the release of Titan Quest in early 2006. Well... the wait isn't quite over... we still need to make the game... but hey, at least the end is sort of almost in sight!

But wait, that's not all!

Here is a post from Roland also from May of 2006:

"I think we all will enjoy the game no matter what...that being said I'd really like to see the game live up to it's FULL potential. Satisify as many people as it can and sell well for IL and ensure that we'll have hopefully several more installments to look forward to over the years."

You knew even before we released that ILE was DOOOOOMED!!! If Targzissian's pleas were not enough, who could ignore the tragic lessons of history.

"So it depends on the game. To me, personally TQ "feels" like it should be there, and to see video of the game played that way and then to be told "sorry you can't play that way" is like salt on a wound so to speak."

Roland, I'm sorry that we salted your wounds. I'd like to say that it was just business and nothing personal against you... but that would be lying. Anyway, lets put those dark days behind us and rejoice. With camera rotation in Grim Dawn, how can we possibly fail?!

[Renevent]

I am glad you are implementing it in a way that people who don't want to mess with it won't have too. In games like this I always feel hampered by a rotating camera and end up messing with it instead of smashing monsters skulls.

[yerkyerk]

Though I'm no fan of hassling with the camera (as a lot of games have a crappy auto-camera), I definetely like the way how you guys want to implement it; not necessary, but possible.

Perhaps in zoomed-in mode even enable an auto camera that floats behind the players back? Not my concern actually, I'll probably just use the fixed camera and limit the rotating camera to taking screenshots :)

[medierra]

Its pretty cool having it in there, although when I'm testing stuff in the game I totally forget that we have it. To me the main value of it is that it gives us more freedom in designing the game world. In TQ we were forced to generally design the levels so that the player was always moving what would be "north, east, west" on the map since going "south" resulted in the awkward situation of running toward the camera. When running down I always felt like combat, especially for ranged characters, didn't work quite as well.

Here I think we are more able to design a world that geographically makes more sense and not have to worry as much about situations were the player may have to run south. If there was an extended period of traveling south, you can just swing the camera around once and then forget about it again until you start traveling in a different direction. Its not necessary, but in my opinion it makes the gameplay feel a little better.

[Dragonero]

I am glad you are implementing it in a way that people who don't want to mess with it won't have too. In games like this I always feel hampered by a rotating camera and end up messing with it instead of smashing monsters skulls.

I totally agree. I also prefer the option to not use the camera rotating. But it is useful to explore the environment in search of hidden treasures!

:D

[medierra]

I can't wait till Roland reads this. Muahaha ; p

[Kluga]

Very good implementation. I'm sure even the people (myself included) who prefer a stationary camera view during gameplay will still find uses for rotating the camera. Just brilliant! :D

[Chameleon]

I'm a fixed camera view man so I doubt I'll be moving it around.


Unlessssss I can pause the game and rotate the camera to take awesome screen shots.:D

[ASYLUM101]

I'm a fixed camera view man so I doubt I'll be moving it around.


Unlessssss I can pause the game and rotate the camera to take awesome screen shots.:D

I'm sure you can in SP, but in MP you'll just have to move that camera real quick!

[Poet of the Fall]

the awkwardness that you sometimes experience when forced to run down toward the bottom of the screen where view distances are shortest.

In TQ I always wondered why the character wasn't simply placed a little above the center of the screen to alleviate the problem with the toolbar at the bottom. Sounds like the easiest way to fix this, as I'm on of those who can't be bothered with camera tinkering all the time.

p.s.: Story synopsis for Grim Dawn sounds really good. Gritty is how I like it.

[medierra]

In TQ I always wondered why the character wasn't simply placed a little above the center of the screen to alleviate the problem with the toolbar at the bottom. Sounds like the easiest way to fix this, as I'm on of those who can't be bothered with camera tinkering all the time.

p.s.: Story synopsis for Grim Dawn sounds really good. Gritty is how I like it.

Yes I always wondered that myself but for whatever reason it just never happened. You'll be pleased to know the character is more center-screen in Grim Dawn and its definitely a bit better.

Glad you like the story. We'll be releasing some more detail on it in the next few weeks.

[MadWasp]

Yes I always wondered that myself but for whatever reason it just never happened. You'll be pleased to know the character is more center-screen in Grim Dawn and its definitely a bit better.

Glad you like the story. We'll be releasing some more detail on it in the next few weeks.


Great news!

Nice GD webpage! Com' on!

[Shattered.likeness]

When running down I always felt like combat, especially for ranged characters, didn't work quite as well.

I completely agree with this, as it is one of the main reasons I didn't play Hunting all that often. Glad to "see" that it has been fixed for Grim Dawn.

[medierra]

The greatest benefit of the rotation is that it allows people to play effectively with the camera zoomed in further. Now the camera swoops down rather low so that you can see a good distance in front of you.

Of course, you can also still zoom out and play from a more top-down perspective.

[MadWasp]

I prefer fixed camera in arpg but rotating function is welcome to those who like it...

[codemajor]

im against a rotation camera. it remembers me to some ..."most wanted but absolutly failed" games...
there are ppl playing with those rotating camera in ARPG games but even as ranger im still not for this. as an option for the players who like it would be the best way if u guys decide to include this function.

[medierra]

im against a rotation camera. it remembers me to some ..."most wanted but absolutly failed" games...

We'll try not to make an absolutely failed game.

This is a totally optional feature that you'll never know is there if you don't want to use it. I'm not sure what people are finding to complain about here? : (

[MimeVictim]

I find it funny how in TQ I wished there was camera rotation (I know there's a mod) and in Sacred 2 I wished the camera was at a more fixed angle.

It seems like it's hard to give the player control over the camera and still make it easy for them to find the "sweet spot", without needing to mess with the camera every 5 seconds.

GD is going to have zoom and rotation, but at fixed angles (that are hopefully done well).. right? That sounds like a good balance.

[medierra]

It seems like it's hard to give the player control over the camera and still make it easy for them to find the "sweet spot", without needing to mess with the camera every 5 seconds.

GD is going to have zoom and rotation, but at fixed angles (that are hopefully done well).. right? That sounds like a good balance.

I find it more difficult to remember that I can rotate the camera than to find the sweet-spot. Even after I've moved it during a play session I tend to then get sucked into the game and once again forget it exists.

In TQ I obviously never needed to rotate the camera but there are times when I would have liked to. Most notably, as I mentioned, when running down. There were even some times in TQ that objects got in the way of my view despite it being designed for a fixed camera. In Grim Dawn, even though you can rotate the camera, our better positioning of the camera makes it even less likely that you'll want to. The character is more centered on the screen now, which makes running down less awkward.

This is a totally optional feature. We've added it because many players requested it and we were able to do it in a way that would have no effect on the players who didn't want it. I'd say that I think people will have a tough time complaining about this feature but I know all too well that people can complain about anything. Really though, if you don't want to rotate the camera, it should have absolutely no impact on the game for you.

[Malpheas]

Camera is a nice addition. I remember playing Dungeon Siege II and thinking... man this rotating camera stuff is cool. I hope it works as well; that is, if I'll even find it necessary.

Still, in TQ I had never needed the camera rotation; not sure what all that hullabaloo was.

[medierra]

Camera is a nice addition. I remember playing Dungeon Siege II and thinking... man this rotating camera stuff is cool. I hope it works as well; that is, if I'll even find it necessary.

Still, in TQ I had never needed the camera rotation; not sure what all that hullabaloo was.

I think mainly it is a matter of supporting different people's personal preferences. If you play at default camera distance, there isn't any need to rotate. However, many players wanted to be able to zoom in and play the game. It is very difficult to play TQ zoomed in because your field of view becomes so limited and there is barely any room between your character and the bottom of the screen.

With the new camera position and rotation, Grim Dawn plays better at both the default, fixed-camera view and zoomed in with the camera rotation.

It allows people to experience the game in two completely different ways. It was one of those extremely rare win-win-win scenarios in game development. We were able to do something at relatively low development cost to improve the game for one segment of the audience with no sacrifice to the other segment of the audience.

[MadWasp]

Perfect solution.

[Malpheas]

I think mainly it is a matter of supporting different people's personal preferences.

<snip>

It allows people to experience the game in two completely different ways. It was one of those extremely rare win-win-win scenarios in game development.

Definitely, it's a great solution; no point in not including it.

[Meghiddo]

I love it, I personally download mods for games without camera rotation so that I can have the ability (I am fairly certain Titan Quest is one that I have done that for, but I might be thinking of something else).

[Roros]

I am glad you are implementing it in a way that people who don't want to mess with it won't have too. In games like this I always feel hampered by a rotating camera (...)

I completely agree. I think the "what? It's 3d but I can't spin it around?" effect only lasts for all of 5 minutes, and I never even think of it after that. I much prefer a fixed camera game with the maps designed accordingly, than a free camera where you are "forced" to constantly manipulate it to get a good view.

Obviously a best-of-both-worlds is even better <3

[Shattered.likeness]

I'm just glad that it was only camera rotatino that was added and not a first person POV instead. I occasionally will play with the rotation features, but first person in this kind of game never really feels right. That's why I was only able to play Morrowind with a controller, be it on XBOX or PC, as the targeting with a keyboard and mouse just doesn't have the right "feel" for me.

[KingJoe]

An observation I've noticed and have yet to fully understand, is why there are two differnet camera systems typically used in ARPG's and MMORPG's.

The majority of ARPG's use a fixed camera or limited rotation camera system (based on single/limited plane rotation), while the majority of MMORPG's use a free-look camera system (the right mouse button taking total control over the FOV). I'm a bit stumped on why the free-look system isn't used more often for ARPG's, is this due to legacy/tradition, or is there an underlying reason to the different camera approaches?

As mentioned from previous posters, it may just come down to preference, but one of the great things I found playing MMO's is having free reign on what I see.

[Rhis]

An observation I've noticed and have yet to fully understand, is why there are two differnet camera systems typically used in ARPG's and MMORPG's.

The majority of ARPG's use a fixed camera or limited rotation camera system (based on single/limited plane rotation), while the majority of MMORPG's use a free-look camera system (the right mouse button taking total control over the FOV). I'm a bit stumped on why the free-look system isn't used more often for ARPG's, is this due to legacy/tradition, or is there an underlying reason to the different camera approaches?

As mentioned from previous posters, it may just come down to preference, but one of the great things I found playing MMO's is having free reign on what I see.

Apart from legacy/tradition, one other reason is a lack of scene complexity in MMOs. The typical MMO, for example WoW, has relatively simple graphics. A low camera angle and therefore a long view distance generally requires that a lot more objects be drawn than a top down view where the view distance is limited by the terrain.

This is compounded by the fact that in an ARPG, anything that can be seen usually needs to go through the update process. An MMO client is really just a dumb terminal which doesn't do much or any processing for AI and other things.

[KingJoe]

Apart from legacy/tradition, one other reason is a lack of scene complexity in MMOs. The typical MMO, for example WoW, has relatively simple graphics. A low camera angle and therefore a long view distance generally requires that a lot more objects be drawn than a top down view where the view distance is limited by the terrain.

This is compounded by the fact that in an ARPG, anything that can be seen usually needs to go through the update process. An MMO client is really just a dumb terminal which doesn't do much or any processing for AI and other things.

That is certainly understandable, thanks for your thoughts. At some point, I hope Moore's law will overcome the current obstacles and give the best of both worlds.

[medierra]

The majority of ARPG's use a fixed camera or limited rotation camera system (based on single/limited plane rotation), while the majority of MMORPG's use a free-look camera system (the right mouse button taking total control over the FOV). I'm a bit stumped on why the free-look system isn't used more often for ARPG's, is this due to legacy/tradition, or is there an underlying reason to the different camera approaches?


Part of it is perhaps audience preference but also the controls have a fundamental impact on the nature of gameplay. MMOs tend to be more about world exploration, socialization, and slower more strategic combat.

ARPGs are all about frenzied killing and loot collection with combat that is faster paced and has an element of tactical movement.

As soon as you start making major changes to one aspect of the controls it tends to cause other things to be shifted around. I'm not sure it is possible to just add a free-look camera to an ARPG without it affecting movement and combat controls. Most MMOs go WASD to facilite this and they have combat that is more about key-timing than positioning. Part of the reason for the difference with MMOs though is also influenced by networking needs.

[Renevent]

I think it's more than graphics, as well. MMO's usually have you just sitting there staring at a fight watching your character whiddle down a single mob repeating the same basic actions and not using movement that much.

Whereas a ARPG like TQ has the player plowing through hordes of enemies, dodging fireballs, and doing a lot more at the same time. That's why rotating cameras are somewhat harder to deal with in these types of games.

[AXidenT]

It's always great thought for screenshots too. I love being able to frame my character in the environment. ^_^

[Llama8]

Whereas a ARPG like TQ has the player plowing through hordes of enemies, dodging fireballs, and doing a lot more at the same time. That's why rotating cameras are somewhat harder to deal with in these types of games.

I liked the options in S2, fixed, follow & free, there's something for everyone without having to force a particular view on anyone. I would have preferred it if you could modify the view(s, I'm mainly thinking of free mode) more easily in-game so you could get "down" further to see more ahead & "up" furtherso there's less stuff getting in your way of seeing the monsters you need to stick with your preferred pointy stick.

[Dobster]

As long as there is the option to fix the camera like in S2, i don't mind what other options there are;)

The good thing about arpg's is not having to mess about with the camera as it takes a way from the flow of the game. TQ was perfect IMO.

[Renevent]

I liked the options in S2, fixed, follow & free, there's something for everyone without having to force a particular view on anyone. I would have preferred it if you could modify the view(s, I'm mainly thinking of free mode) more easily in-game so you could get "down" further to see more ahead & "up" furtherso there's less stuff getting in your way of seeing the monsters you need to stick with your preferred pointy stick.

Ascaron did a decent job making the camera in S2, but I did find myself fighting with it every so often.

It's all good though, as medierra said they are making it in a way both camps will be happy.

[Llama8]

Ascaron did a decent job making the camera in S2, but I did find myself fighting with it every so often.

It's all good though, as medierra said they are making it in a way both camps will be happy.

Yeah, like when the camera passes inside an object (tree/hill/house/etc) & the game decides that you're trying to move to that object rather than kill the dirty great big monster trying to find out what you had for breakfast (the easy way). Though a quick press of the mouse scroll wheel & flick of the mouse sorted things out.

[Dobster]

The worst thing was the boss cam, it had a nasty habit of being able to show you exactly what you didnt want to see :rolleyes:

[Llama8]

Oh Christ yes, the boss cam was an exceptionally bad "feature". It's nice the first time, well, for the first few seconds to show you the diryt great big boss, but then I'd have really liked it to put the focus back on my character. It wasn't so bad on the more stationary bosses, but the Mist boss & Kral (very mobile, liked moving around & therefore making the camera focus move all over the shop, if you've not played S2) were really bad.

[GermanZombie]

The more features I can get the better.
I never understood when people complained about optional features, that could be be set to one way or the other. Controls in RE5 was a good example I personally hated the new controls, but they let me play with the old ones so I was perfectly fine with them adding more control types.

[k4llu5]

I hope the camera will have a key to return to the default position. Rotating and zooming the camera is nice at times, sometimes needed, but we need an auto default button. S2 lacked this simple feature and I hated moving the camera with a passion cause it would never reset correctly. You had to tab the zoom buttons any number of times after talking to NPC's in order to reset the camera. This became tiresome very quicly.

[Llama8]

but we need an auto default button. S2 lacked this simple feature and I hated moving the camera with a passion cause it would never reset correctly. You had to tab the zoom buttons any number of times after talking to NPC's in order to reset the camera. This became tiresome very quicly.

The Z key returned the camera to pointing north, though it didn't affect the zoom or the vertical.

[k4llu5]

The Z key returned the camera to pointing north, though it didn't affect the zoom or the vertical.

Yeah it did have this, but what I meant was that after talking to some NPC's which auto zoomed in and out, the camera never went back to the default position. It started moving more and more closer to your toon. I wish I could have made it so that the camera never auto zoomed (maybe you can with the optionscustom)...

[shawnmck]

I personally could care less about a rotational camera. It's just been my experience that most games of this type that have a rotating camera also had higher requirements & it was taxing on the processor & graphics card. Games that used a fixed camera seemed to have a beter frame-rate and a more constant performance, and better looking graphics. But that's just me.
If its an option, then that satisfies everyone.

BTW
I love Titan Quest, & still play it to this day.
I am so stoked about this game.
:D

[k4llu5]

That is true as now stuff has to rendered in such a way that it can be viewed from just about all angles. I also could care less about rotation, as I never use it as long as character positioning is just right. Although driving south in TQ was a bit awkward. The last thing I want though is to have to worry about the camera more than that BIG ugly guy wanting to smash my face!

[shawnmck]

Sorry if this is off topic, but I didn't know where else I could mention it...
I have already expressed my opinion on a rotating camera, as I honestly think it's over-rated. I've played Dungeon Siege & Loki & Sacred 2 quite a bit (all featuring a rotating camera), & I never thought it was a great feature to have. In some ways it even detracted from the experience, because instead of playing the game, I was constantly rotating the camera because the game was set up in such a way to make it a neccesity. So if grim Dawn utilizes it then I will hardly use it (unless I have to), & if it doesn't then I will not miss it, nor complain about it, but enjoy the game regardless.
But having a rotating camera does not enhance a game at all, but that is just my opinion.
Maybe I've just yet to see it implimented well ?

But what I really wanted to bring up was whether or not playable characters were going to be more varied, or at least more customizable in appearance..?
In Titan Quest, I wish that there were more choices given to playable characters than just choosing between male & female. The skill trees were great, and very diverse, but having the same two choices (male & female) without the ability to at least change their hair color was a tad bit disappointing.
If there were more character choices than customizing a characters looks wouldn't matter so much.
So I was just wondering if Grim Dawn is going to have multiple characters to choose from, or at the very least the ability to cosmetically change character appearance ?
That way, we can have multiple characters going on without them looking the same.

[alexei]

I don't really have any issues with camera rotation. But in Torchlight, the auto-zoom when talking to NPC and opening the inventory annoy me.

[Malpheas]

@ Shawnmck - In Dungeon Siege II, the rotating camera worked well because of all of the enclosed map spaces; clutter making it hard to see without rotating the camera. In TQ the necessity wasn't there (for me at least).

[k4llu5]

I don't really have any issues with camera rotation. But in Torchlight, the auto-zoom when talking to NPC and opening the inventory annoy me.

Yeah, me to. It was the same in S2. A simple toggle for this would have been great.

[Roland]

lol great news medierra!!!

As you might remember I had a somewhat vocal opinion about Titan Quest, having seen the initial gameplay trailers that showed the rotation ability built into the engine and then learning that it had been "re-thought" and disabled ;)

Sorry about that lol ;)

As a true fan of TQ and still currently play my original toon in Legendary Egypt atm I can say that I love TQ without the ability to rotate.

That said, I feel that the ability and "choice" to use it is a Win/Win decision...very glad you were able to build it in to GD :)

:cool:

[Bertil]

I, for one do not really care about the rotating camera, especially if it hinders performance. In TQ, the gamplay was never comprimised and everything that the game attempted, it did well. A rotating camera could not have aided or added to my enjoyment of the game in any way. The lack of cutscenes also was addition by subtraction. Nothing pulled you out of the world unnecessarily.

What did enhance the experience was the diversity of environments from an Architectural, Geological and Archeological perspective. I paused last night to see Egyptian sculptures at the entrance to the Library. There are SO many sights like that in TQIT that just make you marvel, with The Great Wall being perhaps the most obvious. The transition from the snow covered mountains to the lush river valleys was handled smoothly (except for those Dinosaurs!). The set period buildings, structures and art was all really detailed. A lot of love was poured into that game and that is what brings me back, when my affection for the "new girl in town" (e.g. Torchlight) wanes. TL may do some things better (random dungeons, pets travel to town to sell loot), but the overall experience is not quite the same, not as rich. Just my 2 cents.

[medierra]

lol great news medierra!!!

As you might remember I had a somewhat vocal opinion about Titan Quest, having seen the initial gameplay trailers that showed the rotation ability built into the engine and then learning that it had been "re-thought" and disabled ;)

As a true fan of TQ and still currently play my original toon in Legendary Egypt atm I can say that I love TQ without the ability to rotate.

That said, I feel that the ability and "choice" to use it is a Win/Win decision...very glad you were able to build it in to GD :)


Oh I remember well! Haha... No worries! Honestly, at the time it was doubly frustrating for me because I had to explain on the forums why we couldn't have camera rotation but early in the project I had argued for camera rotation on TQ and never quite understood why we couldn't do it. We had no trouble adding it for Grim Dawn and it works great. Maybe we're in for some sort of terrible surprise. ;)

I have to admit, I actually went back and played a little TQ:IT the other day for old time's sake. There is never a time when you NEED camera rotation but there are times when it would simply be more optimal to change your view angle. For one thing, I hate running towards the camera. I only rarely rotate the camera in Grim Dawn but not being able to do it when I wanted to in TQ drove me nuts!

I, for one do not really care about the rotating camera

Uhh... cool?

[heron]

I thought camera rotation had to do with art? Showing the back side of an object or terrain means more work for the artist. Also, the system will use more resource when the camera spins. I noticed this with the camera mod in TQ, it stutters as the camera rotates.
I hope in GD case, it's not true.

[medierra]

I thought camera rotation had to do with art? Showing the back side of an object or terrain means more work for the artist. Also, the system will use more resource when the camera spins. I noticed this with the camera mod in TQ, it stutters as the camera rotates.
I hope in GD case, it's not true.

The art in TQ was all designed to be viewed from 360 degrees. This was done despite the fixed camera so that level designers could rotate objects in different directions and reuse them. Also, since the player is free to run around behind objects, you can see a good portion of the backface of most objects anyway.

The camera mod for TQ that I tried wasn't coded for smooth rotation. It rotates incrementally with each key-tap or if you hold the keys it basically does the same thing but more rapidly due to the windows auto-repeat function. At least, thats how it works so far as I can tell. So I don't know if you're talking about this or actual stuttering due to performance.

In Grim Dawn the camera rotation is fluid so you don't get this effect. If you have a low-end system and are pushing the limits of your system with the video options, then maybe it would hitch when you first start to rotate. The computer I test the game on would have been considered mid-level about 3 years ago. I have no problem rotating the camera. If you have a really low-end system, you may just have to play with fixed camera but, if that's the case, then it is no worse than TQ at least. Although really, I don't expect this to be an issue unless you like to play the game with the camera constantly spinning.

I don't really understand how anyone can complain about this feature (oh wait... this is the internetz nm). If you don't want to rotate the camera, pretend it doesn't exist and it has absolutely no effect on the game. If you do want to rotate the camera, hey, we've got it!

[Starkrun]

There is a file called "ITCameraMod for 1.17community.zip" with a few cfg file tweaks its nearly hitch less except for a minor delay when you hold the rotation key.

Who ever made that file needs a hug and a massive.... i dont know, gold plated roman sword!

[heron]

The camera mod for TQ that I tried wasn't coded for smooth rotation. It rotates incrementally with each key-tap or if you hold the keys it basically does the same thing but more rapidly due to the windows auto-repeat function. At least, thats how it works so far as I can tell. So I don't know if you're talking about this or actual stuttering due to performance.


Yes! That is what I meant, the initial press to rotate stutters only. Other than that it's fluid. And I am not against the idea of camera rotation, I support it 100%!!

[Sile]

Rotating Camera, love it!

This will also open up a bit of freedom for screen shots to share with other players. Would be cool if there was a totally free camera mode that you could enter for taking screenies. Being able to zoom right in to a face with an epic back drop would be cool. Maybe you can already do that with how the camera is set up.

Will having a rotating camera give any advantages of line of sight or seeing a bit further than a player who has a stationary camera? Will you be able to see mobs before another player with the rotating camera?

I think i did read in this thread that there is no difference, but im finding it hard to picture in my mind. Does the distance from the players character to the edge of the screen stay the same in both camera modes?

[medierra]

Rotating Camera, love it!

This will also open up a bit of freedom for screen shots to share with other players. Would be cool if there was a totally free camera mode that you could enter for taking screenies. Being able to zoom right in to a face with an epic back drop would be cool. Maybe you can already do that with how the camera is set up.

Even as it is, you can certainly take more interesting screenshots. Adding in extra art like distance backdrops that you could only see in "special screenshot mode" would slow down performance during gameplay when you couldn't see them, so I don't think this is a good idea. I also think it could be bad to have a camera mode that was only available for taking screenshots as we could end up with a lot of screenshots that are not representative of real gameplay.

Will having a rotating camera give any advantages of line of sight or seeing a bit further than a player who has a stationary camera? Will you be able to see mobs before another player with the rotating camera?

Yes, there is definitely an advantage to rotating the camera. This is sort of unavoidable since you can see further in the direction the camera is facing by default. Allowing the player to rotate it means you can always have the optimal view, as opposed to the fixed camera where sometimes you're facing / fighting toward the camera where you have a shorter view.

Personally, I think most people will be hooked on camera rotation once they try it. It is so easy to use that I don't even realize I'm doing it and I think it makes the game more enjoyable. Every time I go back to play TQ now I keep trying to rotate the camera and it drives me nuts that I can't.

If it is against your religion to rotate camera or whatever, then it will play exactly like TQ (at least so far as the camera goes).

[Nospheratus]

Would be nice to add a shortcut or select a key to reset the position of the camera to its default, whichever it is - facing "north", behind the character, following, etc.

[medierra]

Would be nice to add a shortcut or select a key to reset the position of the camera to its default, whichever it is - facing "north", behind the character, following, etc.

I'm not sure it is really necessary - I mean it isn't like some games with more complicated camera controls where the camera can get all messed up and you just want to reset it. It is extremely simple and I can't think of a reason why you you'd want to auto-reset. When you rotate the camera view never changes, you just change directions. We will see what people in alpha. I am pretty certain that even most people saying they hate the very idea of camera rotation will use it and like it.

[Shinrou]

Well, the only "disadvantage" I can think of rotating the camera constantly is your sense of direction might get a bit off at some point. Though it's not really an issue since the map is gonna get thoroughly explored anyway by constantly checking the map.

I guess there's a bit more work at making the world since you need to take in account that you can rotate camera, thus needing to polish it at every angle, not just where fixed camera angle would want you to see.

[medierra]

Well, the only "disadvantage" I can think of rotating the camera constantly is your sense of direction might get a bit off at some point. Though it's not really an issue since the map is gonna get thoroughly explored anyway by constantly checking the map.

I guess there's a bit more work at making the world since you need to take in account that you can rotate camera, thus needing to polish it at every angle, not just where fixed camera angle would want you to see.

Yes, this is certainly true on both accounts. I'm not too worried about directional disorientation because with the levels being a more open, rounded shape, there isn't as much a sense of forwards and backwards. In a linear level it is easier to accidentally get the camera flipped around and not remember which direction you were going in. There is also reduced risk of that because rotating the camera has no effect on the position of your character and vice versa, so any change in direction is always your doing and not some auto-movement trying to out-think you.

I think though that it is important for us to add in a compass so that there is no question about where you're going. Because the map remains fixed, this is also a good point of reference. You can always tell where you're going based on the direction you're moving on the mini-map.

At ILE some of the content guys developed levels with a fixed camera in the editor but whenever I've done level work I always have a habit of looking at it from every angle anyway, so it hasn't been much of an adjustment for me. The main issue is just remembering to run through area with the default camera to make sure the visibility works without having to rotate the camera. In recent run-throughs of TQ I've found places where visibility is poor and I keep wanting to rotate the camera, so I don't think it will be any worse than that (and better for most since rotation is at least an option here.

[eisprinzessin]

I find it helpful, if there are memorable, distinct landmarks in the field, so that you remember places you visited before and know, where you need to go, without constantly checking the map.

[medierra]

I find it helpful, if there are memorable, distinct landmarks in the field, so that you remember places you visited before and know, where you need to go, without constantly checking the map.

Yes, good point, this is also something we're trying to think about when designing the levels. So far the GD levels have a much greater density of unique content than the TQ levels, so this hasn't been too much of a problem. We also have roads (wagon tracks and footpaths) going through a lot of the level so those can be used to help get your bearings as well.

[Sile]

Even as it is, you can certainly take more interesting screenshots. Adding in extra art like distance backdrops that you could only see in "special screenshot mode" would slow down performance during gameplay when you couldn't see them, so I don't think this is a good idea. I also think it could be bad to have a camera mode that was only available for taking screenshots as we could end up with a lot of screenshots that are not representative of real gameplay.



Yes, there is definitely an advantage to rotating the camera. This is sort of unavoidable since you can see further in the direction the camera is facing by default. Allowing the player to rotate it means you can always have the optimal view, as opposed to the fixed camera where sometimes you're facing / fighting toward the camera where you have a shorter view.

Personally, I think most people will be hooked on camera rotation once they try it. It is so easy to use that I don't even realize I'm doing it and I think it makes the game more enjoyable. Every time I go back to play TQ now I keep trying to rotate the camera and it drives me nuts that I can't.

If it is against your religion to rotate camera or whatever, then it will play exactly like TQ (at least so far as the camera goes).

Thanks for the feedback Med.. when you get a small demo of the game together, make sure you put some fancy camera rotation in there :)

cheers

[Shinrou]

Yes, good point, this is also something we're trying to think about when designing the levels. So far the GD levels have a much greater density of unique content than the TQ levels, so this hasn't been too much of a problem. We also have roads (wagon tracks and footpaths) going through a lot of the level so those can be used to help get your bearings as well.

I'm glad you clarified this point as well as mine. Thank you for that. As I think I mentitioned in some other thread earlier already, the unique locations are what makes the game more memorable, and I'm glad to hear you say this. Whenever I think of TQ and it's locations that has stuck into my head, the first thing that pops outta nowhere is that Passage of Souls. That was short, but had an intense feeling into it.

And TQ had pretty much unique content itself, and to say you're already surpassed it, wow... Alpha release can't come soon enough!

Also yeah, gotta agree with the compass-thing. It's a handy thing to have once you start rotating around mindlessly. :p

[mamba]

I think though that it is important for us to add in a compass so that there is no question about where you're going. Because the map remains fixed, this is also a good point of reference. You can always tell where you're going based on the direction you're moving on the mini-map.

Mini-map being the round small map in a corner, or the popup map I get when pressing M ?

I always get disoriented when the circular map does not rotate with the camera. I am used to 'up' being forward, not north. Use a compass for 'north'. ;)

The popup map on the other hand would not have to rotate (wouldn't mind if it did either, so long as a compass tells me north), as I cannot see the actual game underneath the popup on most of the screen anyway ;)

[Shinrou]

Also make some enemy cast a curse upon you that makes your compass' "north" pointer to switch places randomly at every couple of minutes for like say... 30 minutes?

Now wouldn't that be cool!?

[ASYLUM101]

Also make some enemy cast a curse upon you that makes your compass' "north" pointer to switch places randomly at every couple of minutes for like say... 30 minutes?

Now wouldn't that be cool!?

LOL

I dunno, when I played sacred, I found it incredibly annoying that the minimap spun with the camera. I had to set it to sit still so the minimap resembled the full map. Makes more sense to me, and is way less confusing for me. (i use real maps all the time when I am driving or walking to unknown destinations, so I'm used to a full map that doesn't spin)

[Shinrou]

I dunno, when I played sacred, I found it incredibly annoying that the minimap spun with the camera. I had to set it to sit still so the minimap resembled the full map. Makes more sense to me, and is way less confusing for me. (i use real maps all the time when I am driving or walking to unknown destinations, so I'm used to a full map that doesn't spin)

Well, I'd reckon it's not hard to implement an option to make it fixed or rotating. Or even better, make a SLIDER for it, wasn't those the things people want most? :D

[medierra]

And TQ had pretty much unique content itself, and to say you're already surpassed it, wow... Alpha release can't come soon enough!


Just to be clear - TQ still has way more unique art assets than GD, especially if you inclide TQ:IT. However, so far the levels in GD have more unique locations per square foot, so to speak. A lot Greece especially was just running through featureless woodlands, glasslands and up and down mountains without really many points of interest along the way.

The landscape of GD will be dotted by a lot more ruined farms, deserted villages, old mines, sprawling cemeteries, etc. There is a lot more story being told through the world too.

[Sile]

The screenshots alone back this up for me. The details looks great, even if they are only pre pre pre pre alpha!

[Shinrou]

Just to be clear - TQ still has way more unique art assets than GD, especially if you inclide TQ:IT. However, so far the levels in GD have more unique locations per square foot, so to speak. A lot Greece especially was just running through featureless woodlands, glasslands and up and down mountains without really many points of interest along the way.

The landscape of GD will be dotted by a lot more ruined farms, deserted villages, old mines, sprawling cemeteries, etc. There is a lot more story being told through the world too.

Ohh right, thanks for clarifying. Seems like I just read that earlier reply half-assedly. But anyhow, that's still a good thing. I gotta agree the Greece was quite a monotonous experience in compared to the rest of the game generally speaking. And that's just bad since that's where you especially should strike with variation of scenery and general immersion-creating to keep the interest of players up from the get go.

You make TQ look very bad nowadays, haha. But no matter, the new dawn is coming anyway, just gotta enjoy already how awesome that dawn will be. I mean, TQ is still very cool, but just reading all this stuff makes me cry a little on the deep inside. And I'm glad to cry when I know that we'll be getting a huge treat in the end anyway. :p

[mamba]

Well, I'd reckon it's not hard to implement an option to make it fixed or rotating. Or even better, make a SLIDER for it, wasn't those the things people want most? :D

Agreed, a slider is a solution for everything, 0% -> mini map stays in place, 100% -> mini-map rotates with camera, anything in between -> mini-map rotates a percentage of camera rotation ;)

Heck, if you wanted to, the slider could go past 100% for some fun :)

Oh well, a checkbox would be enough for most users I guess

[Kluga]

Agreed, a slider is a solution for everything, 0% -> mini map stays in place, 100% -> mini-map rotates with camera, anything in between -> mini-map rotates a percentage of camera rotation ;)

Heck, if you wanted to, the slider could go past 100% for some fun :)

Oh well, a checkbox would be enough for most users I guess

AAAANNND we could have a slider which dictates how many sliders you want displayed and how sensitive they are :D

Hahaha good ol' sliders.

[Sile]

I'd like a slider to determine how sliders will work in-game. Maybe a slider to change slider opacity, sliding speed, slider arrow size, slider length, thickness, textures..

While we are at it, new class. Slider. You get a pop out menu for your skills with sliders that operate your spells and attacks. Movement is done with sliders also giving you that genuine sliding feeling.

Now that Ive gone way too far with slider suggestions, we can now stop the slider talk. That's my campaign title, stop the sliders!

:P

[Shinrou]

I'd like a slider to determine how sliders will work in-game. Maybe a slider to change slider opacity, sliding speed, slider arrow size, slider length, thickness, textures..

While we are at it, new class. Slider. You get a pop out menu for your skills with sliders that operate your spells and attacks. Movement is done with sliders also giving you that genuine sliding feeling.

Now that Ive gone way too far with slider suggestions, we can now stop the slider talk. That's my campaign title, stop the sliders!

:P

This post is good conclusion to that talk. You just made my day. Endless opportunities for devs right here! But enough with them sliders for now. :D

...they'll eventually come back anyway, whether we want or not!

[MageMaster]

Ok... Just have to do this.. shoot me now!!


How many sliders can slide a slider if a slider could slide sliders?

I think you know the answer!!

[Sile]

Ok... Just have to do this.. shoot me now!!


How many sliders can slide a slider if a slider could slide sliders?

I think you know the answer!!

rofl! I'll let this slider answer for me

|------------------------->------------------------|

[eisprinzessin]

Grim Slider or Slider's Dawn anyone?

[inebriatedcaribou]

Ok, please.. enough about sliders... urge to kill rising..

The landscape of GD will be dotted by a lot more ruined farms, deserted villages, old mines, sprawling cemeteries, etc. There is a lot more story being told through the world too.

Anyway, this sounds awesome. I'm pretty excited. I mean I love TQ and all of its sprawling land. A friend said to me once while playing TQ together that he thought I enjoyed clearing the fog of war more than the killing/loot collecting. That may be true because to this day playing TQ I cannot help myself exploring everything that the area will allow and I often wish I could climb those rocky cliffs to new areas or swim to that secluded beach in the distance. And with that I do wish TQ had some extra camera features once in a while. Especially for heading "down" or towards the camera but also just look around at the areas.

I do realize that ARPGs aren't really the best choice for these types of exploration and/or picturesque scenery wishes but it was TQ's awesome water and lighting and art that made me want to see more so I guess its not my fault...right?

In short, you have my vote for the optional rotating camera.

[Harlequin]

Grim Slider or Slider's Dawn anyone?

Vote for Grim Slider!!

[Sile]

Ok, please.. enough about sliders... urge to kill rising..

Please use a slider to demonstrate this..















I couldn't help it

[Harlequin]

Please use a slider to demonstrate this..



I couldn't help it

I think he is somewhere around this spot. :>

[Sile]

I think he is somewhere around this spot. :>

lol Harl.. I think you are right.

*puts poking stick away*

[Kardiophylax]

Please use a slider to demonstrate this..

Well, since you asked....

http://media.techeblog.com/images/billymaysdrivethru.jpg

[PinkFrog]

Yep, there are two things about rotating camera that i think are a bit dangerous: 1.) player easily gets lost or at least feels lost and runs in circles. 2.) badly placed objects in the levels are less likely to be spotted by QA :D

Solution for 1.) as mentioned by eisprinzessin, litter the maps with remarkable stuff so that the player can tell where he's coming from.
Solution for 2.) have us swarm the levels during alpha... we will turn every rock (and check for bugs... turtles... etc.)

Another question is, will the game allow setting the camera angle? I mean, not just height but from a "iso" view to a "panoramic" view? Because there are many many problems with that. It's a can of worms.
People tend to demand this feature, mainly because you want to see the armor or the new cool epic sword at your character from up close or you want to look at the nice maps. (Especially marketing tends to use this feature for better screenshots, the iso perspective doesn't look impressive in pictures.)
But its a nightmare for rendering and there is basically no good solution that covers the demand for "many mobs" from a iso-perspective together with the possibility to look in the far distance (while having to keep showing more and more monsters up ahead) Some games (Sacred2, Silverfall etc.) tried it but enemies and objects need to "plop" into view, there's always a nasty "fog of war" and stutterings are unavoidable. Also, all this games have both "go to this location" and "attack this" bound to the l.m.b. In panoramic view you have a much harder time to distinct between some enemy and the terrain. Therefore you keep attacking mobs instead of moving forward.

So anyway... rotation is good :)

[deject]

As a Dungeon Siege (1 and 2) veteran, I can safely say that as long as the level designers leave enough clues in the map design that getting lost won't be an issue. At no point in either of those games was I really lost. I know DS did have a cop out of sorts with big signs at certain points and there were smaller sign posts littered throughout the game world as well.

The only thing I can think of that might be a problem is making sure the player sees something vitally important. If some huge boss is about to rape the player and he misses it because he was looking the other way then that's kinda lame, but I think with smart level and enemy design it won't be a problem.

[medierra]

Another question is, will the game allow setting the camera angle? I mean, not just height but from a "iso" view to a "panoramic" view? Because there are many many problems with that. It's a can of worms.


No, the camera angle never goes much lower than TQ for all the reasons you mentioned. It's funny, I think a lot of people perceive isometric games as being more "old school" and therefore assume they should not be as performance intensive as a first or close 3rd person game with a free-look camera. This is definitely not the case. Each type of game has its own problems and advantages when it comes to performance and you just have to design the game within those constraints. Trying to offer both with the same type of enemy horde gameplay would be difficult or impossible to really do flawlessly.

[Sile]

I never find I get lost in TQ purely because of the map, lol. Should never be getting lost in these kinds of games. Just move towards the blackness!

[PinkFrog]

Aye, if you have rather narrow maps like TQ mostly has (with the exception of Gizeh and some other areas) than it's less likely. The issue becomes larger with increasing size of the areas.

[SDlight]

I am glad you are implementing it in a way that people who don't want to mess with it won't have too. In games like this I always feel hampered by a rotating camera and end up messing with it instead of smashing monsters skulls.

Totally agree. I, for one, remember the awful gymnastics involved, when I tried playing neverwinter nights without pausing the game every 2 seconds.

[R3D]

sorry if i missed it but can we pan up/down or are we stuck at the same diagonal camera but with rotation? like mentioned above can u drag the camera right behind your head for sudo first person where u look out at what your toons are looking at?

[PinkFrog]

At R3D: it's gonna be the "stuck at the same diagonal camera but with rotation" variant. For the good reasons medierra has mentioned, i might add.

[R3D]

sorry i only descoverd all the other pages after i asked and i should have gone back and eddited sorry

[Mind Dragon]

I really liked the rotation in DS2 when it came out.

Now I think it is distracting if you end up doing it a lot.

I think sufficient zoom is the biggest issue I have, especially if the enemies can react to you beyond the edge of the screen.

I would like a max zoom out that is generous. If you dont want that much in the default game, then a config file setting is nice. I dont like searching the web for elaborate procedures for that. I normally use singleplayer mode. If you want to restrict it somewhat for multiplayer, that is ok.

Still, in TQ, I never liked going down especially in the later acts.

If you want some limited visibility, then D2's idea of obstruction based visibility might be something to think about -- except the player should be able to see something even if it is partially viewable. That might be somewhat involved.

[Apocrypha]

As long as there's an easy-to-remember reset to default angle button, it's all good :)

[R3D]

i guess the reason i wanted to be able to pan up and down was that in tq i allwase wanted to zoom in and check out my gear and if at the highest zoom in just a little drop in camra angle or if it droped to look straight at the toon it would have been so much better

[PinkFrog]

Fable has this camera mode, called "hero mode" or something, that zooms close to the character and shows him from the front. This is just there to let you check out the gear (pretty much like the cam in the main menu from TQ).
That seems to be a good way of giving the player both options without having to hazzle with a "free" camera.
On the other hand, you still would need to implement a sky-box etc. just for that.

[yerkyerk]

The option to view your hero in Fable was pretty cool imo. I'm not sure if I ever really used it more than once though.

[PinkFrog]

I know what you mean!

It's one of those options that you hardly ever use but thinks its very cool to have.
I did use it a lot, actually, at least in Fable II. But that is because of another problem of that game: i played as a girl, as usually and was really shocked to see, how butch she turned after eating a couple of pies and putting some skill-points into sword-fighting. So, i respecced and ate a lot of tofu and checked on a regular base, if she's becoming more girl-shaped already. I know, how shallow is that :D
Ah... got carried away... anyway. Yeah, some sort of closeup if cool to have, i guess.

[ch3m]

I for one am a big fan of camera rotation in 3d action rpgs and was pleased as punch to hear that you are implementing in this game. The family and I enjoyed TQ very much and when I saw the post on RPGWatch that you were at it again there was a collective huzzah from our household. The beauty of your world alone begs for rotateable camera to enjoy and immerse yourself in it. The other thing, and this is something I experienced long ago playing Darkstone (the first arpg I played that had roateable camera), was the first time I stood in a doorway with a ranged character and rotated the camera so that I was facing myself and looking from behind the skeletons that were attacking and watching the arrows as they were incoming and sticking in the skeles... it was exciting and extremely pleasureable.

So, I, for one, am a big user of rotateable camera, to both explore and fight, and find it much more helpful than a nuisance. And with developing any other "physical" skill when playing a computer game a quick rotate to either the left or the right or behind takes nanosecond to complete and doesn't detract from the gaming experience... in my opinion. So thanks for implementing it, really looking forward to playing your game.

[Refried]

I'm not sure if someone mentioned this already but: I would like an option to use WASD for movement please.

[winsrp]

Camera rotation is great, there were some times where in TQ I would've LOVED to have camera rotation, and it was not there... and I think I complained too, when I saw the videos and latter on someone said it wouldn't be there.

On the other hand, I would add some quick buttons for fixed rotations...

Example #1, Take the numeric pad... if you hit 8, it will fix you looking from south to north, if you hit 6 from west to est, 3 from north west to south east and so on.

Example #2, Or you can do it on another way... if you hit 6... it will rotate camera, 90° right, if you hit 4 it will rotate 90° left.. according to your current position. (8 would only fix elevation on your current position, in case you moved it up or down)

Or you can have both, if you leave shift pressed you would do one, and if you don't press it, it would to the other.

This should be an implementation that would not take much dev time, and it would be a great addition to the game. Why?? you say... you don't see the point or it??? its quite simple as I see it... You want to focus on playing the game, not finding a good place for your camera ( unless you are looking for that perfect screen shot ) I would just be a hit of a button away from having a good view of what lies ahead of me without having to move the mouse around, and besides, on a battle I might want to move the camera around, but I'm too busy hacking monsters.. so a quick hit of a button and I'm flipped over, and I never miss a second of hacking the baddies.

Also with this, I would add a compass, just to know where I'm currently facing, a visual representation of where am I looking at helps me know which button to press to change my view as quickly as possible.

Before any Devs answer this, (and give me a kick in the groin for posting this time consuming, and totally useless idea, thinking of a possible answer), give it a quick try on the game, and let me know how did it feel... I will assure you, that if you moved the camera too little before, you would definitely love to move it now. ;)

[DragonWolf]

why not just have it as an options setting? You can have a fixed camera or be allowed to rotate it just by checking a little box to lock out the rotation controls or allow free movment.

I don't much like free moving cameras without someway to lock them on account fo the fact that if they move too much or I have ot keep moving them to see I get dizzy.

[Geotarrr]

I also like the possibility for camera rotation, but I mostly would like to have an option for free camera rotation and for hard positioned camera with only zooming feature. That way both parts of the gamers would be pleased.

I also would like to have the option for WASD character movement, that is great feature for some situations.

[hooby]

The only thing I wish for, is to have an option to make the mini-map non-rotating.

Rotating mini-maps get me confused.

[Aity]

+1 for OPTIONAL camera rotation.

Aity likes no brainers...

[Flamusiptheranji]

It was one of those extremely rare win-win-win scenarios in game development. We were able to do something at relatively low development cost to improve the game for one segment of the audience with no sacrifice to the other segment of the audience.

That sounds like a +1 to me. :D

[Rhis]

The only thing I wish for, is to have an option to make the mini-map non-rotating.

Rotating mini-maps get me confused.

In as of today. Thanks for the suggestion.

[hooby]

In as of today. Thanks for the suggestion.

Very nice.

Rotating view couldn't disorient me, but if maps (mini or big) don't show north up top, I'll be lost within mere seconds ;)

[Dracaena]

We're still designing the levels in such a way that camera rotation should not be necessary. So, those players who aren't interested in it, will never have to bother with it.
Very good to hear

[Xss]

I have a little question about the camera, though not about the rotation: will the zoom be like in TQ or more important, mainly the "zoom out"? I have been using the camera mod in TQ, which zoom out is way more important, and kinda got used to it.

[Corpsecrank]

We should have a way to center the view of the camera behind the character so you can snap the camera around to the direction your character is facing. That would make the camera very useful and not just some optional feature you can mess with if you feel like it.

Possible even having a way to keep the camera following your character even to take things a step further. But snapping the camera to the direction of the character alone would make a world of difference.

[Xss]

Don't know if Corpsecrank's message was an answer to my question: I wasn't talking about the rotation of the camera, nor of its functions to follow the character or not.
I was talking about the "zoom in/zoom out" you can do with the camera: how far from your character will you be able to set the camera? Will it be farer than in TQ? I have been playing TQ with a camera hack that allows you to zoom out way more than on the original game, allowing you to see way more of your surroundings. Evertime I play TQ without that mod I end up feeling very tight because the zoom out is not as important...And so far I am having the same feeling when looking and the screenshots of Grim Dawn.

[Skellt]

I'd like to have full control over my camera, sometimes camera angles can be annoying, i know they said they designed the game so the camera rotation wouldnt be necessary (correct me if i'm wrong) but still..

Camera style like HoMM V, where it is pinned on a center point and you can rotate around it as you will.

Collector edition should have camera stuck on head, so it follows head bobbing !! :rolleyes:

[Geotarrr]

I'd like to make one little suggestion.

It's is related to the camera, but not with the camera rotation.

The small icon, showing the character's face, in TQ isn't always in-sync with the face of the character's model. If it's possible, I think it would be nice that face-camera to render the real character's model's face.

[winter1214]

Great to hear. I love TQ but did find that with ranged characters i had to pretty much zoom farther out then i wanted which kinda did away with the detail so lovingly put into it

[Eawyne]

Something I loved about a camera mod I used for TQ was the possibilty to zomm in an almost horizon-like ground view ^^ It made some walks are the more amazing ; something alike in GD would be neat =)

[DeAdOne]

I like the idea of a rotating camera.In some games though i didnt like how it collided with the walls of a dungeon and would cause the camera to zoom in or get stuck on the walls.Even still i would rather have the camera be able to be rotated.Since you guys are making GD playable with or without using camera rotation this will just be all more the better.I would like to see however,if your not already planning on creating one,is a button that would return the camera to default position as if you never moved it. :) A greater zoom range then TQ would be awesome,mostly zoom out as others have stated.

[tnoyce]

Sounds like you are doing it right from what I can see.

I like the fact it isn't mandatory, but it sounds easy enough to do should I wish to. I have yet to see a really good auto camera rotation implementation, and a lot of game have a tendency to put the camera behind things that obscure the view.

[Executioneer]

yep rotation is a good option, and being left as an option to the player is what's most important.

[bryanw1995]

It's funny, I rarely rotated the camera in nwn, but with nwn2 I customized the controls a bit and really enjoyed that. Then I got really into dao for a while, and the camera rotation controls in that game were excellent. A few months ago I dusted off nwn and customized the controls a bit to make camera rotation relatively pain-free for me. However, now that I'm playing TQIT again I don't miss rotation at all. I don't know if it's just the game, or the design, etc, but I don't feel that it's needed in TQ/TQIT. I'm sure I'll appreciate it in Grim Dawn, however, and it will be nice to have something else to differentiate it from its predecessors.

[Roland]

I can't wait till Roland reads this. Muahaha ; p

"YES!!!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs)

What a way to end 2011!!!! Freakin Woot'tastic News!!!

:)

I feel "Happy & Joyful" as if my soul is full and complete after all these years...

/does the Happy Happy Joy Joy Dance! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXSOD1N5lR4)

Please excuse me now...I think I'm crying....

With happiness :)

Thank you Medierra, thank you....

:D

[medierra]

Whoa, talk about delayed reaction! :p

[Roros]

Technically a whole year late.

Edit: I can't even find the post we're talking about!
Edit2: Oh, first page! That is late.

[medea fleecestealer]

I don't care how late I've read the post, this is great news. I don't enjoy games as much when the camera's swinging around all over the place; Sacred 2 comes to mind and Two Worlds II swings and tilts. The darn things make me giddy and I can't turn them off! :mad:

THANK YOU for being sensible and making camera rotation an option, not a "feature" as so many others do. :D

[dwolvin]

Exactly! I don't need camera rotation if the levels are designed to not need it (Titan Quest series), but I do want to be able to zoom out enough that I see the ranged types before the shoot me. Seriously, even if we have the same range it sucks to have shots coming from off-screen (*cough* PoE).

[Zero_Harker]

I suppose camera rotation is the kind of thing that is nice to have but not really necessary (Age of empires III, sue me I liked it.) Though I'm imagining that the more freedom of view we have the easier it'll be to spot things like overlapping textures and other little visual bugs. Say if TQ suddenly had full rotation I'm sure people would notice things like that, not in a bad way though.
Might be hard to tell but I'm on the side of rotation :P

[City Builder]

Will it mean double duty when creating maps using the editor?

In TQ, from what I remember anyway, many objects were one sided since the one side of them would never be seen (cliffs, things like that). But I suppose since they are designing the game to be rotatable from the get go, then all those objects that used to be one sided in TQ will be full all sided objects maybe.

Not a complaint, as I actually enjoyed building worlds in the TQIT editor more than playing the game itself. I guess I'd prefer to build rather than to destroy most of the time, give the other half of my brain a work out every now and then.

Personally, I'm more likely to leave it as a static camera, unless it ends up having a camera that rotates really good (not many games that I own have a good camera that rotates on it's own), otherwise I'd just prefer to use a static camera like in TQ.

[Rhis]

In TQ, from what I remember anyway, many objects were one sided since the one side of them would never be seen (cliffs, things like that).

Correct.


Will it mean double duty when creating maps using the editor?


There won't be any objects with missing sides in GD. :D

[Grimmer]

Rotations in games now are a must

[Vixremento]

I've watched that recent gameplay vid (pre-alpha Occultist) a few times now and seeing that rotation is just fantastic (although if I had made the clip I probably would have over emphasized it by rotating almost 90% of the time lol). Great to have it included optionally for those that would like to use it (I know I would love to) but not forced at the same time.

[Roland]

Whoa, talk about delayed reaction! :p

I was unavoidably detained ;)

[Kyon]

I think zoom option must be in the game . I really like the closer look to my chracter :)