Idea:How to learn(get classes)....

[Chernozem]

I have thought about the setting the game starts in.
How about if there is soemthing like after a certain lvl.you can reach a place in the starting town which you didnt have access to before.
In that room you talk to a trainer to become a warrior,etc or search for a rooom and pray at an altar (or perform a sacrifice,just put a monster charm on it or something)You can become a paladin type character or necromancer type character???
I think this idea is too deep for an ARPG isn't it?It might be too time consuming or difficullt to implement too.
But it might add some colour to it (unique to an ARPG).
Still I would like to know your views and feedbacks on this.:)

P.S:Is this the right section of the forum to post this?:confused:

[psisci]

sound intresting, so do you mean that the second class will be selected after a few quests ? or the first one ?

[Chernozem]

Well yes the second class can be chosen the same way after reaching the next set level.
Before you reach that it could be programmed to say you are not strong enough to master two classes or something like that.
Thanks for responding:)

[psisci]

well, it is a good idea - makes you think what you want to do in order to become a specialized charecter.... :D

[Chernozem]

Thanks again!:D
I never thought that people would actuallly like this idea:p

[eisprinzessin]

I would like to explore the map and search for the masters - one for each mastery. Of course they need to be close by the starting area. But that would be much better as selecting from a menu, when reaching levels 2 and 8. I like the idea in the OP ... it caters for the RPG faction. It's in line with one of my previous suggestions:
There could be three starting areas and you would be asked to choose during character creation. This can affect the main quest or (if that is to complex) side quests. At some stage you need to choose, which of the other areas you want to visit next. [...]

Optional - the following is the original idea (and a spin-off of another of my posts (http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2052#post2052)) and is supposed to give some background to the classes. Each class can only be obtained from one of the three starting areas. The second class can be obtained from either place you have explored.

Each class can be activated through a quest you choose, so that there will not be a menu to select from. Your two classes would be the gift/curse of your decisions. I assume that most people will want to know the result before they decide, so that they do not end up with random classes. So these quests have to be sort of obvious.

[yerkyerk]

This is a good section (Ideas and Feedback would also be good).

I agree, as I said in the thread eisprinzessin quoted:
Imho, beats arriving with no skills in some backwater alley where you fight of satyrs with a stick.

[Chernozem]

Ok.
Thanks for the reference there.:)
Sorry that i didnt see your article on this one eisprinzessin:(
Thanks for all the feedback.:D

[Moschl]

So thinking about that, i´d say this is an good idea. It would be more interessting, when you "choose" your mastery by a master of that :D

[Confuted]

tbh I do like the convenience that TQ had allowing leveling up and choosing masteries on the fly. I would have to agree however, that having specific npcs for each mastery would make each character a 'little more special' or interesting. Granted that in requiring players to visit a trainer all the time would disrupt the flow of a game...especially if part of a group.

I'm not sure how to write my thoughts in a neat essay fashion atm so I'll just babble: It would be neat to visit a certain area of a map specifically designated to your character's masteries. Transversing a small area just outside of town to enter a "hidden portal" to visit your mage trainer while leaving your friends behind would be neat :p But of course there should be more of an incentive to go there...yet it shouldn't be required. I can only imagine such a detour to become really tedious very quickly. Perhaps leveling up already known skills can be done on the fly but learning certain highly effective skills requires the visit to this trainer. (If crafting was introduced to GD, this "portal in the woods for mages only" would be a great add to the game). [...how much is this idea obstructing from the story? iirc only a few people are affected with these powers so where are these expert npcs coming from?]

[eisprinzessin]

Granted that in requiring players to visit a trainer all the time would disrupt the flow of a game...especially if part of a group.
I'd limit the need to visit the master to a minimum. Basically you just visit him once to unlock the mastery. Alternatively there can be a quest line for each mastery. That would enrich multiplayer, as players can take part in each other's quests.

[dicipleofthelie]

This sounds like a fantastic idea to me. In TQ you chose a secondary class at a set point, but i like the idea of having to work to get the class you want. You could become a sort of apprentice to the master, doing side quests until he sees fit to allow you to finish your training. I liked eisprinzessin's idea, where say in order to become a warrior you had to gather certain pieces of armor in a quest line, which lead you to a sub-boss who drops the last piece of armor. The only drawback to this idea is that after a few levels the armor or weapon or whatever will not be as good as rares.

[Spoon of Doom]

This sounds like a fantastic idea to me. In TQ you chose a secondary class at a set point, but i like the idea of having to work to get the class you want. You could become a sort of apprentice to the master, doing side quests until he sees fit to allow you to finish your training. I liked eisprinzessin's idea, where say in order to become a warrior you had to gather certain pieces of armor in a quest line, which lead you to a sub-boss who drops the last piece of armor. The only drawback to this idea is that after a few levels the armor or weapon or whatever will not be as good as rares.
I also like the idea of a questline for each class, just don't overdo it. I don't want to play 6 hours just to become a warrior :)

And for the problem with the armor cicipleofthelie mentioned above: how about you don't get armor, but one half some kind of yin-yang formed charm, crafting item or whatever you want to call it, which works kind of like a piece of equipment that you can't drop. It gives certain bonuses to health, strength, or whatever is appropriate for your class, and later it combines with the item you earn for your second class, so that you have the bonuses of both and maybe an additional bonus for completion. Think of it this way: the class itself doesn't change your attributes, but the item you gain does. So, essentially it is just a symbol representing your class that is integrated into the game world and storyline, instead of some abstract "hey, I'm a warrior now!" moment seperated from the game world.

Sorry if I'm rambling, my head is kind of dizzy right now :D

[nighteyes]

I kind of like the idea that sppon of doom seems to be getting at, with having an item either equipped or in your backpack, this could lead to the ability of having multiple classes but only being able to use one at a time, this means that you can change you skill set prior to or after a big boss vs a large mob. the idea might not fit so very well in Grim dawn with balancing but I think that it would be nice in a game somewhere.

[Aensland]

Having to seek out masters or otherwise "discover" where to learn skills elsewhere is quite inconvenient, but why does the system have to be absolutely one way or another way? How about hybrid systems? Like say characters have some basic skill trees open to them... and then, depending on maybe quests or factions joined or whatever, they get to unlock additional branches of skills. Additional further skills may be available for those who put in enough effort to discover where to learn them.

Or factions don't actually grant different skills but just different modifiers on existing skills. The point is the game has to be designed creatively and not feel like a flash game put together by one guy over a weekend in his garage. Any idiot can slap together a 10-skill tree in a few minutes, the difference is that game companies are expected to spend a bit more effort than that in designing the skills.

In the same vein, skills shouldn't be simply big-bigger-biggest versions of other skills. I hate games which have things like firebolt and then later give you fireball, making the original skill totally obsolete and all your skill points spent in there wasted. Wtf. We should've left this school of design dead and buried together with the 8-bit systems it appeared on. I don't care how many textures the fireball has or how many bloom effects you can abuse when you cast it, it's still a lame skill system if that fireball made a lower skill entirely obsolete. Skill design needs some thought in it too, like synergies and stuff.

[eisprinzessin]

[...] skills shouldn't be simply big-bigger-biggest versions of other skills. I hate games which have things like firebolt and then later give you fireball, making the original skill totally obsolete and all your skill points spent in there wasted. [...]

I believe this applies to Diablo and Final Fantasy, but TQ didn't make this mistake. Base skills just need proper scaling. However:
There is value in having different damage types even if they all behave similarly because it gives the player different resistance types to build up and allows for enemies that have various resistances, immunities, and vulnerabilities, which can require the player to switch up their attacks.

Beyond that, there is value just in the perception that the damages are fictionally different. One of the most important lessons I've learned as a designer, especially as one who started out approaching design in a very practical and analytical manner, is that perception is often more important than reality. Games are all about perception, how they make people feel. Visually and fictionally different damage types are interesting and cool to people even if they were functionally identical.

[mithrial]

I wanna set my skills right when I gained a level. Otherwise it would be a setback if I always have to go back to the right town, find the right trainer and give him money or so.

Maybe a trainer where I choose the skilltree/orientation like Earth, Ice, Hunter etc.) but the skills themself should be available when I got the points.

Having to seek out masters or otherwise "discover" where to learn skills elsewhere is quite inconvenient, but why does the system have to be absolutely one way or another way? How about hybrid systems? Like say characters have some basic skill trees open to them... and then, depending on maybe quests or factions joined or whatever, they get to unlock additional branches of skills. Additional further skills may be available for those who put in enough effort to discover where to learn them.
These are some interesting ideas. I really like it. But somehow the player who plays the game for the first time must know that he gets a super-gigantic-fireball if he joins the wizardry guild. Otherwise one can get easily annoyed because one gets to know later in the game that you could have learned it before.
But if it's well explained or really obvious what you get, this idea would give many different opportunities for the player.

[Aensland]

But somehow the player who plays the game for the first time must know that he gets a super-gigantic-fireball if he joins the wizardry guild. Otherwise one can get easily annoyed because one gets to know later in the game that you could have learned it before.

But if it's well explained or really obvious what you get, this idea would give many different opportunities for the player.

I agree the game should make it clear from the start that you don't get complete skill trees. The skill screen can show extra empty tabs or incomplete spaces at the ends of the trees. People should also pay attention to what the NPCs tell them.

As much as I feel that it is cheesy and cheating, people have come to expect to be able to find a "skill buy-back NPC" so they can always go find one of those to respec their characters. It should be expensive though.

However faction-learned skills shouldn't be able to be thrown away since they're quest related. People can't expect to have their cake and eat it too. If you have to pick between factions which gives you X, Y, or Z skill trees, when you pick tree X you shouldn't be able to later drop it and then pick Y. If there's no consequences for anything then why the hell would there need to be a story, might as well just drop you in an arena to kill kill kill everything in there and be done with the game.

[mithrial]

I agree the game should make it clear from the start that you don't get complete skill trees. The skill screen can show extra empty tabs or incomplete spaces at the ends of the trees. People should also pay attention to what the NPCs tell them.

That's it.

As much as I feel that it is cheesy and cheating, people have come to expect to be able to find a "skill buy-back NPC" so they can always go find one of those to respec their characters. It should be expensive though.

I don't like that skills can be bought back. Expensive is good but later in the game money will certainly play no big role. I think one must sacrifice something more important than money.
Maybe you could buy back an entire level and decide then which points you want back.
So it's not impossible but not as easy as in TQ.


However faction-learned skills shouldn't be able to be thrown away since they're quest related. People can't expect to have their cake and eat it too. If you have to pick between factions which gives you X, Y, or Z skill trees, when you pick tree X you shouldn't be able to later drop it and then pick Y. If there's no consequences for anything then why the hell would there need to be a story, might as well just drop you in an arena to kill kill kill everything in there and be done with the game.
Skill trees must be fixed and not returnable.

[Avilla]

Yes, I think so too. In TQ it was too easy to totally change all your skills since money wasn't a problem after a while.

[i.n.s.a.n.e]

Yes, I think so too. In TQ it was too easy to totally change all your skills since money wasn't a problem after a while.

I think people new to the game who do not know forums and stuff really appreciate that kind of feature..the others can just read what is the most effective build and assign points accordingly without a need to change anything.......so why do you even care guys? Maybe I do not get it..

[Avilla]

Most other ARPGs didn't have a reskill NPC and they did fine. Is there to be no consequence of not planning out your character?

[i.n.s.a.n.e]

Most other ARPGs didn't have a reskill NPC and they did fine. Is there to be no consequence of not planning out your character?

But you can still plan it, can't you? Nobody forces you yourself to use the respec feature..Play it as you like, but let others decide if they need to use it.

The new players who have made bad decision may REALLY appreciate it.

As I said, not everyone reads forums/knows about talent calculators on the internet/etc.

I did not use the feature much in TQ, if once or twice? But I could certainly find a use of it with few of my starting characters in Diablo 2 when I did not know about forums/skills/builds unlike TQ..

The feature becomes redundant once you finish the game few times (you will know stuff), I do not really see a need to make someone's life too hard penalizing him/her too much for a mistake..

[Tenka]

I'm torn on skill redistribution.

I don't like the idea of having to know where I need to be at lvl 50 right from the game start but if skills are created carefully then nothing ever becomes obsolete or useless then you can do whatever.

On the other hand, redistributable skills creates less incentive to start a character afresh in order to try out a new build, which is something I love to do.


As for special quests to learn the classes, I think it's a well meaning idea to add a bit of depth but these things usually just come off as kind of an unnecessary formality or hurdle.

[yerkyerk]

On the other hand, redistributable skills creates less incentive to start a character afresh in order to try out a new build, which is something I love to do.
The game ships with 5 masteries (indubitably more will be available through future DLC which adds n-1 extra build options per mastery, where n is the total available masteries), that allows for 15 builds if I'm not mistaken.

Reason enough to start new builds?

[eisprinzessin]

from the Feature List (http://www.grimdawn.com/about_featurelist.php)
The ability to spend money to reclaim skill and attribute points alleviates the fear and frustration of having to make early, uninformed decisions that could permanently nerf a character.
Sometimes you want to test how a skills works - in case you don't like it, then you can simply buy it back. I wouldn't like it to be any different.

[nicki_1911]

Buying skill points back is fine, as long as money does play a role. As Mithrial already said, the problem in TQ was, that money didn't play any role after a certain time. even not if you never sold stuff and just picked up gold. But if money was really restricted and something of high value just as in real life, buying skill points back could be a good ides. For example in TQ you always got money if you sold something to a merchant. But in fact, merchants wouldn't want to buy unlimited crap from me over and over again and give me money for that.

If merchants wouldn't buy crap, but only things of value and if they only had a certain amount of money they could give to the player and not more than that, the amount of money in the game could be restricted. Money would be of worth again and suitable for buying skillpoints back.

[Chernozem]

Ok maybe I didnt make myself clear in the first post.
Well you would have to only visit a trainer for unlocking the first and second mastery.
You can spend skill points on the fly.
Optionally the trainers could be made more beneficial by giving some advice on skills
to new players.
Certain mastery specific lore quests should only be available by talking to them.
These quests could be totally optional.
Otherwise visiting the trainer except to unlock their mastery will be the choice of the player.

Sorry for such a lengthy post. :(
I hope I made myself clear now.

[Pendaelose]

Sacred 1/2 wasn't my favorite ARPG, but it did a great job with the first 30 minutes of game play. You chose your class in a menu when starting a new character and each class spawned in a different area with a new trainer.

You could use those same trainers as the point where you pick up your second mastery.


This method also gave a great starting area where players could explore a good size area without wandering out of the newb zones. If it was geared for levels 1-8 then choosing a second mastery would be a great quest to get them ready for the "real" adventure.

[Stormhorn]

Sacred ehh its great game but at other side we have TQ thats 2 arpg games i played most in past years.Since we talk about skill system here and starting area many tings from sacred could work great in GD.Im not sure how much changes we actually need cose i like TQ skill system and im sure it will be refreshed and upgraded for GD.

In TQ i liked that all classes was available at lvl 2 and 8
i liked respec option
i liked usability of skills
but one thing i didn't liked when we speak about classes , look and movement , all look same and act same , same size , color , actions ... and i think thats first thing on must be done for classes [ if we want to change something about them]

In Sacred i liked different starting locations it was great , liked sacred shops more than TQ cose u could actually buy something good cose trading skill.

And cose that ill add here that 2nd important change in GD must be shops and crafting.In future list i see they work in that direction and more complex and versatile crafting and resource system are great addition.

At shop side i would like to see more useful options. U know we can have many different shops from gear , scrolls , recipes , pets , resources , special gear [ every 5 lvl maybe ] , buffs , mercenaries ... till visual modifications like hair look and color change.Its not problem how much money we have but its big problem if we dont have where to spend all our money [gold,oil,caps even bubblegums :D :P whatever money in GD will be]

i was reading this forum and also TQ forum and i like many new ideas and futures.But for me i would like more to see good and fully finished game then some buggy and half done.

[Pendaelose]

Shops are a little off topic, but I agree completely

When you're low level in TQ the decent shop gear is far too expensive to afford, by the time you can afford the decent gear you've out leveled most of it... and at high levels there is absolutely no reason to even look at shop inventories. There's not even a reason to pickup gold, and later no reason to pickup items unless you plan to use them.

Shops need a cost ratio more on par with the gold players will actually accumulate, and they need to scale up to higher levels offering loot comparable to what you can expect dropped.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement, but Dungeon Defenders recently introduced a new trick... you can lock store items that you want but can't afford yet. It's like putting it on layaway. every time you return to the vendor that item will always be available. It would cut down on some of the frustration when you find a sweet item you can't afford (at low level) and the next 100 trips to the store yield nothing worth buying.

[Mind Dragon]

I have mentioned this before but you cannot plan out your character build because the skills are unknown and you dont know how they will scale.

You dont know what enemies you will be facing.

You dont know if significant enemies will substantially resist the best part of your skills -- stun, entrapment, slow.

How do you figure that some, normally powerful skill, like lighning bolt, will be trivial to bosses because they have so much health and the cool down is so long.

With bosses, you are left with basic or upgraded primary attack for most of the time. Sometimes there is a low cooldown attack with high damage like ice shards that is available -- but you might not have chosen that skill or may not have upgraded it sufficiently.

[Pendaelose]

Uncertainty doesn't imply you can't plan. Rather it means you need to plan on being as flexible as possible.

Or, if you are playing multiplayer with friends it means you can each specialize into core areas like DPS or Mob Control. So long as you communicate your plans to each other you will have a well rounded party and the specific uncertainties of the future are no longer something to be feared.