Partial Randomization

[medierra]

The mysterious crop-circle looking things in the image below are a new feature we're experimenting with that generates randomized scenery. Levels that use these won't be totally randomized as the heightmap terrain currently remains fixed but these "setpieces" can allow us to more significantly randomize the location of important things within the level as well as the general scenery. For example, in the level below, I'm using setpieces to generate natural scenery, enemy spawn locations, human camps, and loot chests. So far, this seems to be a nice blend between hand-crafted and randomized. You get the visual quality and uniqueness of hand-crafted terrain but some of the fun of exploring a level each time and never knowing quite what you might find or where.

We're also investigating methods of randomizing the path through the level by creating a bunch of different possible routes and then randomly closing some of them off with dynamically generated obstacles.

http://www.grimdawn.com/screenshots/2011-04-28_cropcircles01.jpg

[ZorusX]

Awesome. I seriously can not wait to use this editor. I already enjoy the TQ one and this will be so much better! No random crashing, magnet pieces, new lighting and randomization! awesome!

So far, this seems to be a nice blend between hand-crafted and randomized.

I'd have to experience it first hand to say for sure, but I'd be inclined to agree.

Question - are the 'setpieces' a group of pre-defined objects or do you plop them on the map and then select them to manually edit what appears inside?

Keep up the awesome work!

[PCDania]

Sounds very interesting and very promising what replayability goes. I hope you manage to get it working as intended. I guess it's not that easy to implement.

[yerkyerk]

The pathing would be really awesome, but even this is something I didn't expect. Great news!

Will the set pieces be randomized each time you start a new game, or will they remain the same for the same character? I'm assuming the former, but you never know (Diablo 2 used the latter in single player for some reason).

[Renevent]

Awesome...did not expect this kind of thing :)

[Seronx]

Looks nice!

[medierra]

Here is a peak at the way they are configured in the editor. Basically you created a database file for each setpiece that you want to place and it contains a bunch of fields where you can specify different arrays of objects and then set a chance to spawn, number limit, size variation, rotation, and placement algorithm. Using these we can spawn scenery objects, enemy spawn proxies, loot proxies, merchants, NPCs, etc. So, for example, this human camp can currently spawn a tent or two, a wagon, a cookstand, campfire, various barrels and crates, a merchant, and NPCs. We're thinking we could possibly use this to spawn randomly appearing quest givers / objectives.

They currently randomize each time you enter the game. I'm not sure if we'll be using these throughout the game or just in certain randomized "wilderness" regions, which is how we have it set up currently.

I have some ideas as to how we could use this tech along with new randomized portal tech (more about that later) to possibly add a cool new twist to the way that you progress in the game. Still have some thinking to do on that though before I make any decisions.

http://www.grimdawn.com/screenshots/2011-04-28_setpieces01.jpg

[Dobster]

This is sounding so good, really wasn't expecting things like that to be in the game.

I love the idea of random loot chests changing places in the levels.

[Moschl]

Oh it´s looks really greate. I like it.
I´m really interested in it :D

[Harlequin]

This sounds very very awesome. I am really looking forward to this game and the editor. :>

Will we be able to use the editor during the alpha?

[Samsonite]

This is so awesome, you guys are really improving the old IL engine by leaps and bounds, not to mention the new editor tools alone.


Keep on keepin on:D

I'm really kind of jealous >_> I'd love to work with this engine to make my own Indie game haha.

[Scryer]

Absolutely awesome! I think that’s a pretty cool compromise. Having a hand-crafted area with randomized placements is pretty great. Combine that with a possible dungeon randomizer… and you’ve increased the replay-ability tenfold.

Unfortunately when it comes to a dungeon randomizer, you either make your dungeons square and blocky, or round and organic. But because most dungeons are “manmade” one expects the square and blocky model.

Although if you ask me it doesn’t matter either way as long as it follows the theme of the game.

Thanks for the update!

Keep on improving!

[ZorusX]

I was kinda hoping they'd be creatable in the editor so its a bit quicker to do on the fly, as you are building the level, but the way you have it set up also seems clearly laid out. It also lets you easily make repeatable variations of camps that you can place over and over.

Hoipefully all this awesome accessibility to modders will help people make new mods which increase the replayability or Grim Dawn. Actually.... is the GD toolset going to be available with the alpha?

[TECHNOmancer]

I need a moment to pick my jaw up off of the floor. WOW!! Just. . . wow!!

TECHNOmancer

[Opal Monkey]

Just keeps getting better and better, and even harder to wait for! :D

We're thinking we could possibly use this to spawn randomly appearing quest givers / objectives.

This made me think of all the talk about random quests in HG:L before it came out. Never really turned out well there, but I have no doubt that if you guys decide to do it, it will actually work! Would certainly help take the edge off things being too repetitive.

[thedarkwolf333]

Just keeps getting better and better, and even harder to wait for! :D



This made me think of all the talk about random quests in HG:L before it came out. Never really turned out well there, but I have no doubt that if you guys decide to do it, it will actually work! Would certainly help take the edge off things being too repetitive.

*Shudder* The placement of quest objectives was terrible. They were supposed to be random, but there would inevitably be 3 out 4 whatevers right noext to one another, with the 4th placed in some back corner you never felt like exploring.

I think what Crate is doing will work out very well if they can get it just right. But randomization without everything looking goofy is hard to accomplish. I'm sure they'll get it just right before release, and this gives me yet another reason to be excited about Grim Dawn.

My team and I are trying something similar with our game. UDK uses fixed spawn points by default. They are easily modified via their associated scripts. We are going to write one for every monster type, and for certain other objects, such as loot chests. We will then place them around the maps in various locations, and give them a chance to spawn their assigned entity. This will give some controlled randomization to our maps, which will be (for the most part) static.

[Josho]

I really like what I'm reading and I hope it will please some of the critics who weren't happy with the handcrafted, static world.

The way I am reading part of the post, it sounds a little bit like in Diablo where not all of the side quests were available to the player in the one game playthrough. Starting out, Diablo might have the wounded townsman, or the poisoned well, but not necessarily both available.

If I am reading it right*, and a similar potential exists for Grim Dawn, then colour me excited. This can only boost replayability, and make going back through already visited areas a little more rewarding, picking up side quests that may not have been available.



*If I have misinterpreted, I'm blaming beer and beer alone...

[Shinrou]

I think this solution is the perfect middle ground to go with. If it does retain the handcrafted feel of TQ while being somewhat randomized, it will be a win-win situation.

I'm also all in for quests/event that doesn't appear at every playthrough. It will give nice replay value in itself as well.

[Thander]

Really nice to see :rolleyes:

I think you've hit a very nice in-between with the partial randomization. Secondly I'm getting all excited to try out the editor once all your ideas are implemented.
To me, it seems that a lot of these ideas can really help breed a large active community due to the large amount of customization most likely becoming available.
My 10 thumbs up for you guys, keep up the good work!

[tnoyce]

Just want to echo the general consensus here. I think what you're doing, is a good mix, and will add to the desire to replay through.

[Executioneer]

I also support your idea, apart from avoiding repetitive situations, you could also manipulate quest items to spawn in different locations, so as to have another reason to explore the map(like to wealthy collector before Chang'an but on a larger scale).

keep the up good work!!

[alexei]

great stuff! really like it. didn't expect comes to this stage already. hopes it will make it in the release. of course if it will make it, then it will affect largely on gameplay, questing and looting and replayability.

keep the up good work??

[Mind Dragon]

This is sounding so good, really wasn't expecting things like that to be in the game.


From the screen shots the world looks detailed and interesting so I didnt think it could be improved futher by pushing more mesh/texture/shaders/effects than what has already been added. This randomization was a good choice. I look forward to playing/replaying my favorite builds.

[Silversaint]

I like the idea of "creating a bunch of different possible routes and then randomly closing some of them off with dynamically generated obstacles"! U never know what going to happen in the next corner~ :D

[Kardiophylax]

This is has to be one of the most interesting and exciting updates for me in a long time. I am really glad to see how much detail is being put into Grim Dawn. I've been sold on the game for many, many months now, but this is the kind of the stuff that is going to make it easier to sell it to my friends. Thanks medierra and Crate!

[LeonResEvil2]

I love the idea of randomization, and making the game a bit different every time. I used to love Diablo 2, since there was always so much area and it was never the same. But I notice there that it's more of a timesink now (as compared to when I was young and timesinks were fine). Generating big, bland lands that take you hours just to get to the next quest are lame. I appreciate the straightforward nature of TQ, and it works better in friendly multiplayer since people know where to go forwards. We can all keep as a partying group, banding together and not fighting over which way to desperately search for the next quest. TQ was greatly sized, but the static nature made Greece and Egypt get somewhat boring (admittedly after probably 80 play-throughs of those lands). This system sounds about perfect.

[Starkrun]

The very idea that your going to hold to a basic layout of routes but generate the scenery around these routes and modify the paths create a replayability that will only breath life into the game for years to come.

This was my one and only thing holding back the game, if anything was at all. Creating even a slightly different zone/map during a play though helps more than you can imagine.

I support this idea with all the fibers of my gamer soul.

[Code187]

i have to say!!! dont rusk out the game and just make it great allaround.
super news to see what you all are up to.
i gladly wait one more year!!!
been here allready one year and you just keep make me smile and make me thinking what a game GD will become!!!

+10 to Crate :D

[The Old Farmer]

Great ideas and I hope that the randomization makes repeated new character play throughs a lot more interesting and fun. This game just keeps getting better all the time.

[Zabith]

I have a question about the partial randomization, medierra says,They currently randomize each time you enter the game. Is this for everytime you enter the game or every new game? It will be cool if some things randomize each time you enter the game such as NPCs and camp objects and the natural scenery changes only for every new game. Sorry if ive misunderstood this.


Zab.

[eisprinzessin]

the natural scenery changes only for every new game.
I can't image that all randomised data for plants, rocks and camps will be saved, so that you can re-visit the same randomised scenery, if you return with your character to a place. That would blow up your save game data ... at least I think so.

Besides, regarding camps - if you leave the game and continue later, that's how enemies respawn. That's when we want them to appear at a different location.

[Zabith]

I understand about camps and enemies spawning in different spots thats how i would like it to, but say i save my game standing beside a tree and a rock that i use as a land mark it would be kind of silly if come back to my game and that tree and rock has moved to a different spot. But however its implemented im sure the game is going to be awsome. :)

[The Old Farmer]

It would make sense that like TQ when you restart a save you are at a spawn point and all randomized aspects of your game are different and the fog of war is reinstated. This is only my guess though.

[Zabith]

Yes that would make sense, forgot about spawn points :o, its been awhile since ive played TQIT ever since the map i was working on for over a year Lands of Grimgoria got wiped out :( I just couldnt bring myself to start over or play for that matter and since i found out about Grim Dawn i thought id wait and hopefully get my hands on the editor for Grim Dawn and start fresh.

[Pixie]

Please make it as randomize as possible.
The only thing I hate for TQ is the constant map, it really reduced the re-playable of TQ a LOT.

[SmajlicekCZ]

Hmm, I never had a problem with TQ having constant maps, didn't stop me from replaying the game to death (I still do). Compared to Diablo 2, TQ maps had much more detail and care put into them. Besides, after hundreds/thousands of hours, you recognize the patterns and map pieces in Diablo 2, decreasing the "exploration" aspect.

But a well done map randomization, even only partial, would definitely help the replayability aspect of the game and would be a great plus, I'm not denying that. I just think that it isn't that important for replayability as for example loot/monster randomization/variation and multiple ways to build your character.

[tomagabriel]

Randomly "generate natural scenery, enemy spawn locations, human camps, and loot chests" + "quest-givers" -> if all these come true I'll be like *\o/*\o/ *\o/*\o/ *\o/*.

If you make also random dungeons then it'll be complete.

[OdiumTheologicum]

The one thing that killed my joy in any hack n' slash is static maps. Any D2 clone I could only get as far as the beginning of the second difficulty and it began to feel real stale. As beautiful as the TQ scenery was, I just couldn't do it. I'm excited to see some randomization in the maps. Please do more than just the scenery. The paths idea sounds like an excellent one to me.

[revel911]

Thank you so much, this is a great blend. Do you know if the objective locations have been randomized also?

Say you have to go to a cave to kill X .... can that cave be in random locations and when you get in the cave is X in a random location?

He mentions NPC's and camps, but I didn't know if this applied to those with quest attached.

[Sharne]

Wow, you guys really are taking this to a whole new level!
I think ideas like this as well as pathing blockers are truly the kind of innovations that show that you love to do what you are doing, finding new ways to do it for the fun of the game.

keep this up and ya'll may see an amazing release of a new genre/style/income like never before!

[MercurialAlchemist]

I can't image that all randomised data for plants, rocks and camps will be saved, so that you can re-visit the same randomised scenery, if you return with your character to a place. That would blow up your save game data ... at least I think so.


Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, not necessarily (or rather, it depends how random your random generation is). The randomized data is going to be generated from a unique seed number, which will be specific for your game. From this seed, you'll generate additional random numbers to place rocks, plants, etc. (that's probably a very naive overview, but I'd be surprised if the actual mechanics were substantially different). Now, if these random numbers can be generated in the same, predictable order every time from a given seed, you can generate the level procedurally any time you want, you just need to save a seed specific to the level and to know which algorithm to use. Next time the player returns to an area already generated/visited before, you would be able to recreate the location of the various landscape from the seed, in exactly the same way the level was initially generated.

Now, I have no idea of how much data this would represent, and how feasible it would be to generate the level every time in this fashion. On the other hand, if you're going to generate the level every time (as opposed to loading it from disk), you don't really lose anything by doing it this way.