Proficiency System ideas

[Jophilli]

I'm stealing my own topic from another thread and starting it here:

"For me, one of my favorite niches of Action RPGs (specifically in console games, for example Secret of Mana) was the ability to increase the proficiency of skills and the use of weapons by simply using them. I think it would be fun to see something like that in Grim Dawn. I know that Dungeon Siege did this, but I never really got into that series.

Basing the idea off of what Medierra said about how people would hold onto cool-looking items, I think that this could alleviate some of that problem. I found myself not wanting to part with Epic and Legendary items simply because they were so unique, but in reality, I could often modify Green items and they would be WAY better than any Blue or Purple. Perhaps if the more somebody uses a unique item, the more powerful it could become! Or an even simpler solution to this problem would be to allow players to modify Unique items so that they don't lose their usefulness so quickly.

Any more ideas as to how to implement a "proficiency" system in a game like this? "


A proficiency system sounds pretty interesting. I kind of wonder if it's possible to make a very big loot based game and only affect the weapons. So the player can use certain weapons they prefer (like early level weapons) rather then trying to try and find a higher level weapon every time they gain a new level.

Hard to explain I guess.

I found this awesome looking weapon with stats on it, maybe the proficiency system can make that weapon just as worth-while as a weapon I find later in the game of the same type. Maybe the new weapon might offer different and interesting modifiers.

I'd have to think this out a little more to see how it might work to benefit the game though.

It would be neat if unique weapons and armor could level up with your character. Perhaps a character could spend lots of money upgrading their unique weapon, causing its abilities (and level requirement) to scale up accordingly. Since there'd be no downgrading, it'd make the weapon less twinkable, but if they liked the look or stats of an item, they could use it forever on that character if they wanted. Or maybe just until they got to the right level for some other higher level unique they like better. It'd be a spiffy money sink.


Also, I think that would make it much more interesting and fun to start fresh with new weapons that might have different modifiers or elemental effects than the last weapon you carried around for the past 6-10 hours or so. It would be an easy way to experience the fun of having a custom character, but without having to take away the tried-and-true formula of Stat point allocation! If you look at unique, proficiency-based items as "mini-character" aspects of your main character, I think the benefits are pretty clear.

[yerkyerk]

I thought this idea was first about general weapons proficiency (e.g. if you use swords a lot, you get a bonus when equipping a sword), but if I understand correctly, you want the proficiency to be bound to a specific weapon?

Could be interesting, but I rather like exchanging my old blade of the suck for a new, better one, once in a while.
I think this will damage the luck aspect of the game concerning loot though; instead of finding an awesome new weapon, which gives a new approach to the game, you just increment your current one a little bit and go on. I suspect that'll be a bit boring.

I also suspect it will be a huge pain to balance such a system.

[Jophilli]

Yeh, what I meant originally was to have that proficiency system where the more you use a skill or magic power, the more effective it would become and (my favorite) would actually evolve visually, as well. That would be very cool and interesting.

What I spoke of in my last post was just an extension of the idea of prolonging the life of Unique items, or at least one idea of how to do so.

But, yes. I would like to see the proficiency system also affect weapon usage so that logically, the more I use dual hand axes, the more skilled my character would be at using hand axes. I would prefer this method of upgrading weapon skill than by simply throwing skill points into a mastery, a la Diablo II Barb.

[Scryer]

Well, here's my thoughts on weapon proficiencies.

As the player levels up their proficiencies they develop their skills with that particular weapon type. Then once the player has gained enough proficiency with that weapon type he'll gain access to a kind of passive - bonus pan that the player can apply to all weapons of that type. This passive bonus pan will have like 5 or so different passives that apply to the weapon type that the player is using.

Gaining proficiencies is as simple as using the weapon and being the correct character level to gain a new passive bonus for that weapon. So a player could "level up" their sword skill to gain assume passive for their sword fighting.

Or when a player "casts" a spell with a staff, it'll level up their staff proficiency thus they gain access to an awesome weapon passive.

These passives don't have to affect any specific weapon, just the weapon type. So when you do find a better item then "Sword of suck" you'll still have these awesome passive.

And if the player wants other weapon passives he'll have to use those weapons to eventually gain them.

I think if you give the player a choice of like 5 passives out of 10 then it creates an interesting dilemma in which the player has to decide what is best for their character.

So main points -

- Player levels up weapon proficiency to gain access to a weapon type passive.

- player eventually gains access to up to 5 or so passives for that weapon type.

- Added bonus for using a weapon.

- 10 or more awesome passives make for interesting player choices.

[Iggy]

Well, touching on the subject of "holding onto cool-looking items".

I always do that, in mmos or arpg. I play a character because i like the way he looks, what emanes from him. If i have to make concession like giving up what i want him to look like just to have the "hammer of skull bashing +15686", i'm more likely to not play the character anymore at all.

So, what i'd like to see, is a sort of "imbue" system. For some money and maybe some reagents (depending on how much crafting is implemented in the game), you can "imbue" a object with the properties of another.

Ex: You like this sword A, only level 10, but it's just the look you wanted. Now you just got this "sword of hacking" level 20, its way better, but looks kinda meh. No problem, the "blacksmith" will reforge your sword A, effectively giving it the properties of the "sword of hacking" (erasing previous stats). Now, you have the item with the look you want.

This would allow for more customisation, without changing the art direction of the game (no dye or custom mesh, the art has to be in the game already), and while still encouraging to find better items. You'll still look around for good items to upgrade your weapons, or you'll search for this one look you really like.

Of course, i would see this with limits, mainly items types. You cant have a caster robe with the stats of a plate or a chain mail. You cant give your dagger the stats of a 2handed axe, they have to come from the same item type.

[Scryer]

That sounds like a great idea. Imbuing one weapon that you enjoy the look of for another weapon of the same type to increase it's stats / damage to that of the better weapon.

Awesome idea!

[yerkyerk]

Back on the proficiency suggestion;
I like the idea of having only limited passives, where you have to choose between 5 of 10 available perks. That creates more customization (and fun, I I think) than just giving the player all 10 perks.

[Malpheas]

Or passives based uniquely on the item itself; and two or three caste type perks.

Or you could have items where they did jack until you used them for a while; these would have to be really good ones... but eh.

[Panthro]

This reminds me a little of a certain mod for oblivion.

In oblivion, there were certain special items that would be rewards for certain tasks. If you were level 10, the item would have certain stats, if you were level 20 it would have much better stats. However, such things were locked at the level at which you'd recieved them, so a cool weapon you'd got at level 5 might be useless when you're level 15. So someone made a mod so that the items levelled with you, which would usually mean they'd get better every 5 levels you'd increased.

Just think this may be an interesting thing for the best type of unique items, perhaps they could gain special effects or power as you level?

[Jophilli]

Or the weapons could level up as you kill monsters with them, which forces the player to try out different equipment so that things don't become stale.

[ASYLUM101]

On the topic of weapons that level with the player....

it would be pretty neat to have a weapon that was in essence, "living". Perhaps like the soul of a fallen warrior embedded into it. Anyway. The point is, say you kill X amount of a certain type of monster, you unlock an achievement, and that achievement is for the weapon only, providing a boost in your killing power for that monster type. This is kinda reinforcing what Jophilli said, but I figured I'd add my own input. Or, similarly, after your WEAPON gains X experience, it levels up. Increased damage, buffs, perhaps quality and model/mesh, etc. On certain levels, that weapon level up will ask the player to choose a perk(affix) to be given to the weapon. *shrug* throwing stuff out there now, but I'm getting into this idea, it seems very cool. Weapon proficiencies of course could add to this, enabling said soul-weapon to be more powerful.

[Panthro]

On the topic of weapons that level with the player....

it would be pretty neat to have a weapon that was in essence, "living". Perhaps like the soul of a fallen warrior embedded into it.

Kinda like Lilarcor (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate_series#Lilarcor)?

[Jimbot]

Yeh, what I meant originally was to have that proficiency system where the more you use a skill or magic power, the more effective it would become and (my favorite) would actually evolve visually, as well. That would be very cool and interesting.

What I spoke of in my last post was just an extension of the idea of prolonging the life of Unique items, or at least one idea of how to do so.

But, yes. I would like to see the proficiency system also affect weapon usage so that logically, the more I use dual hand axes, the more skilled my character would be at using hand axes. I would prefer this method of upgrading weapon skill than by simply throwing skill points into a mastery, a la Diablo II Barb.

I support the Magic and skill idea here. The more you use magic, the more spectacular it looks. Everyone likes a sense of progression, and seeing that wimpy looking fireball turn into a red-hot plasma ball of überdeath really can make a person giddy.

I also support the weapon proficiency idea. I think they should be broken up into general proficiencies, however. Having too many "classes" would scare off people from experimenting with weapons because they won't be as efficient with them and in an action RPG, loot makes the world go 'round. So keeping general proficiencies will keep people open of trying out different weapons of that proficiency type.

Another proficiency idea that would encourage people to try out new items would be to allow players to transfer the stats from the item to their character. Say you pick up a sword that adds +2 to Strength. After using this sword for a while, you can choose to transfer that +2 strength bonus to your strength permanently. Depending on the bonus determines how long you have to use the weapon or armor. If the weapon has more than one bonus to your stats, you have to choose one and after you transfer that stat, the sword loses all of its magical properties.

Another way to balance that is to have sort of these "upgrade slots" that allow you to add bonuses you received from the equipment there. Allowing you to get bonuses but they're permanent as long as you have them in the "upgrade slot". Changing it out for a greater bonus or another one will cause you to lose it forever. Say have an "upgrade" slot for attributes, skills/powers or whatever. If you want a lore explanation, using a magical item so much will cause its energies to bleed into you, strengthening you with its magic, but losing it in the process.

[Malpheas]

I support the Magic and skill idea here. The more you use magic, the more spectacular it looks. Everyone likes a sense of progression, and seeing that wimpy looking fireball turn into a red-hot plasma ball of überdeath really can make a person giddy.

A la Secret of Mana snes? Actually I liked the way some spells changed look once you got additions and higher levels to them in TQ:IT. That was kind of rewarding.

[Jophilli]

Yes, like I said before :)... just like Secret of Mana.

I like the idea from Asylum about getting bonuses for killing certain monsters enough times with a weapon. I've always thought that would be a logical feature in RPGs, the more you fought certain types of enemies, then obviously the more knowledgeable and skilled you would become at doing so. And just because a character is an overall highly experienced warrior, he wouldn't automatically know how to deal with an enemy he's never encountered before. I always thought that would be an interesting idea to play with.

[The Old Farmer]

I always thought the whole idea behind an ARPG was the betterment of your character and the accumulation of better weapons and armor.

[ASYLUM101]

I always thought the whole idea behind an ARPG was the betterment of your character and the accumulation of better weapons and armor.

So did I. :)

[Jophilli]

I always thought the whole idea behind an ARPG was the betterment of your character and the accumulation of better weapons and armor.

Who doesn't think that?

[TheRani]

I thought this idea was first about general weapons proficiency (e.g. if you use swords a lot, you get a bonus when equipping a sword), but if I understand correctly, you want the proficiency to be bound to a specific weapon?

Could be interesting, but I rather like exchanging my old blade of the suck for a new, better one, once in a while.
I think this will damage the luck aspect of the game concerning loot though; instead of finding an awesome new weapon, which gives a new approach to the game, you just increment your current one a little bit and go on. I suspect that'll be a bit boring.

I also suspect it will be a huge pain to balance such a system.

Not necessarily. With unique weapons that can be upgraded, you'd still be able to grab another unique you like better and spend tons of money upgrading that one instead. It'd just be a matter of choosing between sticking with the one you've invested millions in upgrading, or choosing to start upgrading a new one. In some unusual cases you may want to upgrade a unique with particular stats you need for your build forever, but in most cases it'd probably go more like this:

Your mage found a unique staff at level 15 that did 20 base fire damage but gave a +2 to the Fireball spell (which is your mage's specialty). You could spend money leveling it up, so that you could keep your +2 to Fireball, but still do decent damage with staff attacks, even at level 25 and 30. Then later you may find a level 40 unique staff that gives +4 to Fireball and has some other nice stats you like (say, mana leech and a nice fat fire damage bonus), and start leveling up that one instead. But the ability to level up the other one's base damage helped you to make that transition from 15 to 40 a lot less painful. It doesn't force you to use the same weapon forever.

[Megika]

Not necessarily. With unique weapons that can be upgraded, you'd still be able to grab another unique you like better and spend tons of money upgrading that one instead. It'd just be a matter of choosing between sticking with the one you've invested millions in upgrading, or choosing to start upgrading a new one. In some unusual cases you may want to upgrade a unique with particular stats you need for your build forever, but in most cases it'd probably go more like this:

Your mage found a unique staff at level 15 that did 20 base fire damage but gave a +2 to the Fireball spell (which is your mage's specialty). You could spend money leveling it up, so that you could keep your +2 to Fireball, but still do decent damage with staff attacks, even at level 25 and 30. Then later you may find a level 40 unique staff that gives +4 to Fireball and has some other nice stats you like (say, mana leech and a nice fat fire damage bonus), and start leveling up that one instead. But the ability to level up the other one's base damage helped you to make that transition from 15 to 40 a lot less painful. It doesn't force you to use the same weapon forever.

Except this is talking about leveling up weapons with time, not money. You've already invested all this time into that sword of suck, and you'd have to spend a whole lot of time using a (less proficient) sword of pwnage to get it to a similar level, and then move up into higher echelons of power.

I dislike proficiencies, as they tend to discourage hybridization.

[Jophilli]

I can see how weapon proficiencies would become problematic.

What I would really like to see, though, is that the more I use my magic/skills, the better they got. It's rewarding to see your favorite moves become more powerful and visually/viscerally more awesome. I like feeling like I'm working toward something, rather than arbitrarily throwing points here and there... which I tend to do often.

[yerkyerk]

Myeah, I think a good proficiency system (one that is bound to item types, not specific items) will rather encourage people to use non-standard weapons for their characters. Only for the sake of completeness they might try to max the one-handed sword skill to lvl20 on their casters.
And giving decent bonuses might make hybrids more viable. +20 OA might not mean much for a Warrior, it's a relatively big boost for a wizard.

[Malpheas]

Either that or make better bonuses for lesser used weapons, as in an exotic profiency.

Eg. Two handed weapon (hammer, sword, polearm) gets a 3x Critical instead of lesser whatever. Or % Chance to hit another enemy on swing (or proc on swing that does small AoE, etc.)

You could go many ways with profiencies.

[Megika]

And giving decent bonuses might make hybrids more viable. +20 OA might not mean much for a Warrior, it's a relatively big boost for a wizard.

Actually, now that I think about it, you're right. It's a method of giving characters another boost separate to their attributes and skills, dependent on how they're playing the game.

Either that or make better bonuses for lesser used weapons, as in an exotic proficiency.

(snip)

I like this. Proficiencies with unique bonuses (more than just +str, +damage etc) could give each weapon a unique feel to use, rather than just being a different attack speed:damage ratio (as in TQ).

[Jophilli]

After contemplating the "exotic" type proficiencies for several weeks, I have finally come here to say that it is a PRIT-tee KOO-wul idea.

Mk. Please excuse me, I've not gotten much sleep lately. And trying to build a game in the Torque Game Engine for the past week (it was due today) has taken its toll on me. I haven't really been contemplating this topic, but I see that it hasn't gotten much farther from two weeks ago. I really think that unique proficiency bonuses for less used weapons is a good idea. I think for once, under those conditions, a Polearm could actually be a viable weapon aside from the novelty have carrying a big ****!ng bec-de-corbin just for looks.

Anything that makes more people feel like their character is unique in some way is absolutely key in multiplayer RPGs. If you think about it, that's truly the main reason why we (or maybe I'm alone on this one, but I highly doubt it) even start new characters in any game in the first place--not simply to make a beastcake out of a virtual collection of pixels, faces or vertices--but to feel unique. Lots of games fail on that aspect, and that's why I have a burning hatred for following character builds: I know that, in the end, my character is definitely not unique in any way.

I know this issue is impossible to get around in reality, but at least we can trick ourselves into feeling like our character is unique. The more options we have to choose from and the more time we spend on making our character work in a certain way, the more fun the overall experience is. Thusly, branching exotic weapon proficiencies WOULD BE SWEET.

:confused: I have no idea what I just rambled about. A 5-hour energy, three sleepless nights, and a Final Project later I am but a husk of a being.

[eisprinzessin]

I have a burning hatred for following character buildsI sympathize with you. Allthough we are just playing games, we are supposed to be efficient. :furious: Game mechanics are remorseless. It's hardly rewarded that you take the greater challenge. :cry:

[Malpheas]

It's hardly rewarded that you take the greater challenge. :cry:

See, that's the difficult thing, you're going to purposely make it harder on yourself (which I admire) and look for rewards based more on the vs. the game aspect rather than "I've done it, it was fun" aspect.

I think the fact that a Bowadin with Shakuko in Diablo II with Crushing blow equipment that worked in cows in 1.09 was the funniest thing EVER. that was reward in itself. Buriza-dins were ok, but eh. I loved my Shakuko.

[eisprinzessin]

I was just whining ;) I spent over 100 days of my life in WoW and heard that some guilds impose a build on you. :mad: Now, that's extreme and did not happen in my guild, but still.

I'm not familiar with Diabolo at all. But happy to hear, that you enjoyed your apparent unusual build. TQ has been my first and only ARPG. I used to play JRPGs and turn-based tactical RPGs on PS1. :)

So, back on topic. Vagrant Story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrant_story) has a proficiency system - for monster types. Can be a bit tricky, if none of your weapons is good against all current opponents. :eek:

[Malpheas]

I was just whining ;) I spent over 100 days of my life in WoW and heard that some guilds impose a build on you.

That's not really a good time. Would make me not want to get into a guild...

[LeStryfe79]

Proficiencies were done really well in Borderlands.

[yerkyerk]

Yup, something like proficiency in Borderlands would be perfect, imho.