Goddamn Microsoft!

[hooby]

:furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:

I'm sitting on my work laptop. I have Ubuntu installed here - It's my preferred OS for working.

What I especially love about it:
.) All software is downloaded and installed on the klick of a button (in one single, searchable list of all available software)
.) You never need to enter a serial number, you never need to agree to an EULA, you never need to follow an installation wizard.
.) There's only one single, not-annoying updater that does look for updates of EVERYTHING you have installed.
.) Installing new updates does not require you to restart your system, unless you install kernel updates.
.) The system never hangs or freezes, even if you manage to crash an application (which is VERY rare to happen.)

Some time ago Firefox tried to add an EULA to its installation - which caused quite an uproar in the community. People forked off an EULA-free branch of FF, and intended to replace FF with that "new" browser as system default, just because of that EULA. Let's just say the Ubuntu community doesn't like the sight of any fine print with hitches in it.
Mozilla backed off and removed the EULA again.

Now, I have to do a bit of web-design work from time to time, and to be absolutely true to the layout I have to implement, I need to have that same fonts installed, that the layout uses. Mostly thats stuff like "Arial", "Verdana", "Tahoma", etc.
Those are Microsoft fonts. They are used everywhere on the web.

I had those fonts for years now, they are free and unrestricted to use. They come with a stupid wizard-style installer, but at least that installer comes with the regular automatic software install. I never had any problems with those.

Suddenly there is an update for that fonts. The update changes nothing on the fonts itself - but does add an EULA to the installer. That's all it does. Plus, if you don't agree to the EULA the installer deletes the fonts from your system.

I'm pretty sure Microsoft does that on purpose - and that they know about that Firefox-EULA-Incident.

And now comes the really bad part: That damn installer crashes. It freezes completely. It crashes so bad, that the hung process cannot be killed. It becomes a zombie process, and even kill -9 and kill -15 don't work on it.
You have to reboot your system, to get rid of that dead process.

In all those years that I am using Linux now, I NEVER before had to reboot my system, because a process crashed. NOT A SINGLE TIME. I usually put my system into sleep mode only, and don't reboot for months. Except for Kernel Updates you don't have to reboot EVER.

And now my system got crashed so bad - that I was forced to reboot (for the very first time) - and it was BECAUSE OF FUCKING FONTS?

That's Microsoft for you.

Well I can't agree to the EULA. The Installer crashed every time. It's impossible to accept the EULA after you once disagreed to it, even if you completely uninstall and reinstall the whole package.

I AM PISSED.
What a heap of shit.

[hooby]

Hah, I tricked it.

Installed the package via apt-get from the shell, that circumvents the installer from starting.

No I've got all the fonts again, and I had not to agree to any EULA at all.

[Psychogasm]

im alittle confused, whats the big deal of agreeing to an EULA?

[Malpheas]

From what I understand, it ties your hands, removing creative liscense.

To use a product you have to surrender rights.

However I could have a backwards idea concerning EULA.

Personally I balked at the SC2-B.NET2 ToS / EULA... just garbage.

[jiaco]

sudo aptitude install msttcorefonts

It has to be done on any linux system, it is part of the install. Do not use Synaptic, nor apt-get. aptitude is the debian installer, learn it, love it and be glad you are not forced to use Centos or any red hat distro.

Never saw the EULA but I personally would agree to it, default linux text is practically unreadable.

[hooby]

im alittle confused, whats the big deal of agreeing to an EULA?

The big deal is, that whenever you try to agree to the EULA, the installer crashes, and you have to reboot your system, and try starting the install again. (Then it crashes again).


When I have the choice, I personally prefer not having an EULA. It's a huge wall of boring text, and I just don't want to read it. But it could have legal implications.

I remember the very first license of Googles Chrome server. It said, that whatever you use your browser for, (uploading something, writing text/blogs, etc. ) that you transfer all copyright of all that material to google.

That caused a major ruckus, and Google then removed that from the EULA.

It's stuff like that, I'd like to know, before uploading something.

And I have a Windows computer for gaming at home. There sooooo many of that EULAs, and some of them change with every patch, and have to be agreed to again...

You can't read them all, but by agreeing to them, you make yourself liable in a legal way. You can be sued for not keeping to the EULA.

[hooby]

Never saw the EULA but I personally would agree to it,

Doesn't work. Can't agree to it. It always crashes.

[Skellt]

You can't read them all, but by agreeing to them, you make yourself liable in a legal way. You can be sued for not keeping to the EULA.

Then again what are the odds of that for real?
I mean i agree to every EULA without reading them nor even caring about what's written. i get EULA from cracked programs and everyone who has decent kowledge of computers wont pay for many stuff, for instance, we have 4 pcs at home, none of them have a legal windows, all cracked on xp and mine is cracked on win 7.. yet windows beleives i have legal copies as i can do the updates.

Same goes with word, photoshop, many older games that cannot be bought anymore and the list goes on.

The chances that you get sued for not doing what the EULA are VERY VERY slim, unless you do everything in your power to get sued.

Same goes for copyright on dvds, that FBI warning and whatnot, eveyone burns the dvds and chances that you get in trouble are near to nothing

[hooby]

Many companies do get irregular visits of national inspectors. At a company they basically may show up any time they want - unannounced.

That's a bit different from your private place, where they would need a search warrant first.

[Llama8]

I remember the very first license of Googles Chrome server. It said, that whatever you use your browser for, (uploading something, writing text/blogs, etc. ) that you transfer all copyright of all that material to google.
I believe that that would be an example of an unenforceable contract in the UK. Just becuase you agree to something doesn't mean it can legally be enforced. I couldn't sign myself into slavery for example. I also don't think it's legally binding for one party to change the terms of a contract after the sale (ie, you buy a copy of some software & then on installation the EULA places all sorts of restrictions on you), but hey, I'm not a lawyer.

[Renevent]

I believe that that would be an example of an unenforceable contract in the UK. Just becuase you agree to something doesn't mean it can legally be enforced. I couldn't sign myself into slavery for example. I also don't think it's legally binding for one party to change the terms of a contract after the sale (ie, you buy a copy of some software & then on installation the EULA places all sorts of restrictions on you), but hey, I'm not a lawyer.

There are many instances of EULA's not holding up in court. To be honest I barely even pay attention to them...at least when it comes to games.

[Skellt]

Many companies do get irregular visits of national inspectors. At a company they basically may show up any time they want - unannounced.

That's a bit different from your private place, where they would need a search warrant first.

pretty much.

Then again, unless you work in a big company and everyone cracks their shit, chances are rather low that you ever get checked.

All that was to say, who cares if you say yes to an EULA? -_-, i never once read one, though i have agreed to dozens and dozens of them.. and i'm not worried at all


There are many instances of EULA's not holding up in court. To be honest I barely even pay attention to them...at least when it comes to games.

neither do i haha, like i said, i crack most of my programs, and i dont care about them either.. and dont think its worth the read...

Same goes for DRM, i think yas will disagree with me on this one but i dont give a rat's ass about it

[hooby]

Well then, if that's the truth, then EULAs are just utterly pointless and there is no meaning in having to agree to them in the first place. So, like I said before - if I had a choice, I'd rather not have 'em.

But that's all besides the point.

The point is, I got Ubuntu running for several years. I have dozens of applications and thousands of packages installed at the moment, and I tried through many more over the years.

Not a single one of all those ever needed a seperate installer.
Not a single one of all those ever crashed during install.
Not a single one of those ever prompted me to agree to an EULA.
Not a single one of those ever forced me to reboot.

And now all that things happened at once.

Just because... well... some fonts... just some TTF files.

Edit: And just as "coincidence" those TTF files are the only stuff from Microsoft that's on that Laptop.

I believe that's fully worth a bit of ranting!

[Renevent]

The point is not that they are totally useless (from the merchants point of view)...just that some of the stuff you are worrying about isn't really a concern as anything that couldn't be held up under common law wouldn't hold up either regardless if you agreed to it or not.

Basically, the law does try and protect both parties in any contract/agreement :D

Anyways I am not saying disregard all EULA's...in fact I am pretty happy there are other people out there reading these things and calling out companies when they include something not on the up and up. But for me personally...something like a video game it's just not a big concern.

[Skellt]

and what would be the harm of agreeing to that EULA?

i mean, esp in game comunity, what % of those people actually take the time to read this? less than 1%? pretty sure even game dev dont care about them, though i am speaking for myself now.

I dont know how an EULA can be brought up in court but still...


The point is not that they are totally useless (from the merchants point of view)...just that some of the stuff you are worrying about isn't really a concern as anything that couldn't be held up under common law wouldn't hold up either regardless if you agreed to it or not.

Basically, the law does try and protect both parties in any contract/agreement :D

Anyways I am not saying disregard all EULA's...in fact I am pretty happy there are other people out there reading these things and calling out companies when they include something not on the up and up. But for me personally...something like a video game it's just not a big concern.


and yeah im with you on this one, i dont mean to insult anyone by my claims or anything, i guess there can be some bad stuff in them and whatnot, but i wont be the one to read it all and try to udnerstand all its hidden details.

Game and software wise, they can put any EULA on them, wont stop me from buying / cracking it

[hooby]

and what would be the harm of agreeing to that EULA?

System crash and reboot?

[Renevent]

Isn't that more of an application/installer problem and not so much an issue with the EULA itself?

[Skellt]

System crash and reboot?

maybe i missread your post, i tought disagreeing to the eula and canceling the installation process was crashing your comp, but yeah that does sound more like an application issue rather than eula

[hooby]

Isn't that more of an application/installer problem and not so much an issue with the EULA itself?

True.

As I write above, that EULA stuff is besides the point.

1.) The fonts used an installer.
2.) The installer presented an EULA.
3.) Then it crashed.
4.) Then I had to reboot.

All four points equally annoying to me. I never focused solely on the EULA - I don't know why that other guys became so deeply engrossed in that part of my ranting.

It's like I dropped a brick, dropped a clanger, put my foot in - or whatever the correct translation of "Fettnäpfchen" is. ;) - Obviously I hit a tender spot...

Edit:
and 5.) No other of all my apps EVER did a single one of those points 1. to 4.

[Skellt]

haha sorry, i mean i was talking about it for the sake of the argument, no hard feelings.

i thought the EULA itself was the problem, and what caused the crash when you said no to it, my missunderstanding, sorry.

Though, why dont you ever reboot your system?
i feel like it only use your components faster than it normally would

then again i dont know your occupations nor how much time you spend on your comp and all but... but for isntance, if i play 4h a day, it'll be open for those 4 hours then shut down until i play the next day or some crap

[hooby]

haha sorry, i mean i was talking about it for the sake of the argument, no hard feelings.

i thought the EULA itself was the problem, and what caused the crash when you said no to it, my missunderstanding, sorry.

Though, why dont you ever reboot your system?
i feel like it only use your components faster than it normally would

then again i dont know your occupations nor how much time you spend on your comp and all but... but for isntance, if i play 4h a day, it'll be open for those 4 hours then shut down until i play the next day or some crap

I put it to "hibernate" mode. Is the same as completely shut down.

Only difference being - next day of work, all my open windows, running programs etc. are still there, I can have unsaved Documents open over the night (or even over weeks). I just switch on, and can continue exactly where I stopped the day before. Nothing get's closed, nothing get's changed.

[Skellt]

i guess :p
i can see the use to continue work off of where you left

i just never did this i guess its why its a bit strange to me (tried a few times but.. always shuts down my come nonetheless, and open back up my programs)

Anyway my comp opens fast enough, i press the button go upstairs, grab a bottle of water, go back downstairs and its open, with all the programs i want it to open on startup, so it isnt much of a worry for me :P

[hooby]

maybe i missread your post, i tought disagreeing to the eula and canceling the installation process was crashing your comp

Yes it did. Too. Just like agreeing did.

Fact is, it is just some font files that need to be copied into the fonts folder. The regular software for downloading and installing apps - which is used by all of the other thousands of apps available - can do much more than that, and works perfectly fine. It does automatic download, automatic install, automatic updates... The only thing it does not is EULAs.

So if it wasn't for the EULA, that handful of fonts would have absolutely no need for a special installer. The regular software channel easily could install them.

That installer only is used because of that EULA.

[Skellt]

oh well that blows :P

get a virtual PC, install windows, get the fonts and then copy the files onto your main hardware!

bit of a hassle but still haha

[hooby]

i guess :p
i can see the use to continue work off of where you left

i just never did this i guess its why its a bit strange to me (tried a few times but.. always shuts down my come nonetheless, and open back up my programs)

Anyway my comp opens fast enough, i press the button go upstairs, grab a bottle of water, go back downstairs and its open, with all the programs i want it to open on startup, so it isnt much of a worry for me :P

I love it. It's a great comfort to have that possibility.

If I reboot I have to find all those 20-something files I had open again, and all my line-number markings are gone.

After waking the computer up from Hibernate I can just look at what I just did yesterday. I can press undo, and have a look at what where the last changes that I made the day before.

All my mail-accounts are open, my browser still shows that documation I viewed - scrolled exactly to the position where I stopped reading. The preview of the stuff I'm working on is still there.

Terminal still has all it's tabs with the correct names. I have only to press up and enter to reconnected the last servers I were on via ssh.

It's not fast. Waking up from hibernate takes a while - rebooting would be quicker. But doing all that stuff myself would need a while too. So I can spend that time getting a coffee instead of trying to get everything back together.

[hooby]

get a virtual PC, install windows,

I already have four ... wait, no, it's five! - of those. For testing and stuff.

One on my laptop, the rest on servers, accessible via vnc and rpd.

[Skellt]

yeah, i can see the use of it, def.

Though as i said my use of computer has grown to the point where i normally do something i finish it so :P

might eventually give it a shot once again but so far, reboot suits my needs

[Skellt]

I already have four ... wait, no, it's five! - of those. For testing and stuff.

One on my laptop, the rest on servers, accessible via vnc and rpd.

couldnt you install the font on there and then copy the new files?

[Llama8]

couldnt you install the font on there and then copy the new files?

I think Hooby was ranting about the principle of the thing...

[hooby]

Yeah, but I already have the fonts now. Got the package via the shell - that worked.


But it took me like half an hour.
Normally updating is a fire and forget operation. Even if there is a kernel update, which requires a restart - I can just click "later", and then forget about it, and don't ever reboot for another week. I'll still be using the not updated kernel then though - but well, *shrugs*

So just imagine the situation - I'm deep into work, and hell it's a busy time at the moment. Though deadlines, a lot of stuff to do, and some unexpected trouble with some bugs.

So the updater pops up... I ignore it for a while, then I click "update" and continue working - just like I'm used to it.

Suddenly some installer wizard pops up and requires me to klick "install"-"next" and there's your EULA. I'm like WTF?, see the Word "Microsoft" and just hit cancel - because I don't have the time to bother myself with that stuff right now. I can look into it later.

Then the thing crashes. Completely. Uses up 100% of one core of the CPU. Annoying. I try to kill it (takes some reading through man of the kill command), but it's not possible. Now I have to look through all of my open windows, save everything unsaved, write down some notes about all stuff that was pending at that moment - takes some time again.

I reboot and plan on continuing to work - just to find that the fonts are gone, and the website I just worked on looks a bit different than before. So I have to reinstall that fonts NOW.

After I once put myself onto the task, I had installed the fonts within five minutes. But everything combined that whole incident cost me about half an hour I guess. And loosing that much time just because of some stupid fonts - that hurt.

[Skellt]

yeah i can imagine that in your case it ought to be a hassle.

[hooby]

The way I see it, whenever you are a guest somewhere, there's something you just are not supposed to do, unless you intend on insulting your host.

You do do not swear loud and polonged in church.
When invited to dinner at your neighbors, you don't tell their childern dirty, adult jokes.
When going to job interview you don't come late.
When at a date you don't fart and burp.
When in a japanese house, you don't keep your shoes on.

And when a software is guest at Ubuntu/linux a host, it simply does not use a custom installer, does not crash during install, does not use an eula, and it never asks for a system reboot.
That's the expected behaviour, because every last other software does so.

Intentionally not keeping to any one of that standards is just rude.
But breaking all of them at once, for something that isn't even an application, but just a bunch of font files - that's really offending.

And as I mentioned in my first post - I am pretty sure that Microsoft is doing this on purpose.

[Skellt]

maybe, but, i dont see this being a big deal haha i guess its really because we dont have the same mindset as far as computer goes :P

[hooby]

I don't find that surprising.

I believe that most people who only work with Windows - and therefore have no comparison - truly believe that stuff to be normal, and don't think about it.

It's like somebody, who never had any sugar in his whole live, wouldn't be able to understand why someone complains about the sugarfree tea/cake/etc. not being sweet enough.

You must get used to something first, to then be able to miss it, when it's gone ;)

It's as simple as that.

[Skellt]

true though my current use of computers does not require that sleep mode.

At home im gaming, so i open it up, doesnt matter the sites i visited or whatever, i start up a game, i save, close it up and shut down the coputer, there is remotely nothing else that can be done.

And at work, i program in.. hmm dunno if you're familiar with it, its called Ladder here, and i have to save every 10 min because the program is so big that it fills up my ram when i compile it, and program may crash.
Aside from that, a few emails here and there, And i write operation manuals for our system, thats the only place i'd see "sleep" being useful

so i'm assuming our occupations differ quite alot as well :P

[hooby]

At home im gaming, so i open it up, doesnt matter the sites i visited or whatever, i start up a game, i save, close it up and shut down the coputer, there is remotely nothing else that can be done.

Yeah, my gaming rig at home does get shut down every time too. And it happens often enough that I do have to reboot while using it, because something hangs, freezes or crashes.

I wouldn't dare to put Windows into sleep mode, with unsaved documents still beeing open. I'd be too afraid of loosing them.

[Renevent]

My wife does that all the time with her laptop, so far nothing bad has happened and she's never lost anything.

[Skellt]

well i did it a few times for my laptop with the job, close it to save energy while im on the feild, works fine, just that i dont need it THAT often.

So far i havent lost anything so.

But like i said, i tend to favor the shutdown anyway

[hooby]

My wife does that all the time with her laptop, so far nothing bad has happened and she's never lost anything.

I once wrote a fan-fiction story with MS-Word... I hit CTRL-S like every ten seconds, as paranoid as that old Office 97 (running in WinXP, I believe with no service packs yet) had me.

Then I got blue-screened, and I was like "Good thing I saved so often!".

Then the file was corrupt, and could not be restored by Office. Everything was gone.

So, even with saving and rebooting, and you still aren't on the save side ;)

[Renevent]

Well that's pretty old man lol. I haven't seen a blue screen since XP SP2, and I haven't crashed ever with Win 7. Programs have stopped responding, but that's about it.

MS Word 97 is a throw back though...I think I might have been on Windows 98 or something when that was released :D

I think that version of office was actually released for the 3.X versions of windows...and it had a few service packs. Believe it or not, MS products have gotten much better since that dreadful time!

[Skellt]

yeah back then BSOD (blue screen of death) was pretty damn comon, but since Win 7.. ive been using it for almost a year and i havent had one single BSOD nor crash taht would require a reboot, i have programs every now and then that crashes, but windows simply closes them, no need to kill or anything, simly ougt to start the program once again and you're set

And with most program like Word 2007, they make periodic saves and when it crashes, it restores the last save, which usually you lose max a sentence nothing more!

[hooby]

Yeah, my gaming rig at home is running Win7 too.

I have regular problems with the system forgetting my brightness-settings - so I have to do that color calibration wizard over and over again.

And sometimes it disables Aero, claiming that there isn't enough RAM (got 4 Gigs, how much RAM does it need to draw some windows Borders...? ) - and it then never enables it again, until I change to another destop theme, and then back to my own.

But that's all bits and pieces.

But no bluescreens, no crashes, no freezes yet. All the important stuff works great.

I had some games crash so hard, that I had to press the reset button (becausing opening the task-manager wasn't possible), but well, can't blame Windows for me installing buggy games.

So yeah, Win7 is a HUGE improvement over previos Windowses.

[Skellt]

if i was on 32 bit still, i woulda stuck with XP but... since im on 64 bit now, i got win 7...

hardest part is getting a specific 32 bit installer to work on xp, thats a hassle... works but game runs weird after haha, but hey, i can play it!

TBH not even sure what i did to make it work, played with commands, installer, codes... and at one point it work, so i left it as it was haha

[Llama8]

And when a software is guest at Ubuntu/linux a host, it simply does not use a custom installer, does not crash during install, does not use an eula, and it never asks for a system reboot.
That's the expected behaviour, because every last other software does so.

True, but would you invite a right-wing skinhead to a left-wing political rally & expect them to play nice?

[Void(null)]

You could always: Crash Different. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVwbhsqEyNI)

I laughed so hard!

[Llama8]

I don't suppose there's a link to whatever he was parodying?

[Void(null)]

I don't suppose there's a link to whatever he was parodying?

Its from Macs "Switch" series of Ads. If you check on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBfo4tGKO2s&NR=1) there is a whole series of them.