Achievements!

[heron]

As topic, likes or dislikes?
Let's discuss.

[ASYLUM101]

Eh, both. Like because it'll pull some people into the game even if they don't really particularily care for it. My cousin for example claims himself an achievement hunter and spends almost all his time playing his xbox to grab as many achievements as he can, and he'll play any game for them. Yet, at the same when said hunters get their achievements, they feel no more purpose to the game and stop playing it. so, I dunno.

[yerkyerk]

I'm hoping for in-game character-bound achievements (perhaps medals or trophies or something) and well, perhaps Steam achievements.

It can give the player a goal after having completed the game. But achievements such as 'kill 1 satyr' and 'complete the main quest' are a bit pointless, as you'll finish them anyway..

[Malpheas]

I wouldn't be opposed to achievements that give you some reward for accomplishing.

Eg. Some crafting achievement that reduces, slightly, the number of reagents you need (if certain types in bulk) or perhaps reducing casting cost after using spells a certain amount. This might be suitable for simplifying and reducing the power of items a little bit and justify another time investment. Just thoughts.

Cheers,

Malph

[Darktruth77]

Like yerkyerk says a ingame achivements that goes in your stats would be nice and also like Malpheas Idea accomplish things that give you better stats or resistances or whatever.

ex. kill that many monsters/mini bosses/champion "enemy" of this type( let say frost "something" of death) and gain #% of cold resistance etc etc. but of course making it not so easy or fast to kill that many.

something like that :P

[heron]

yes, the achievement can unlock special amulets/perks.

example: slay 500 skeletons
reward: amulet with +5 damage to undead

[Malpheas]

Yeah, but make it a nominal bonus.

Perhaps aim it towards crafting in particular... that's just my preference. As for in combat ... I wouldn't give too much of a bonus. Exploitable.

[ASYLUM101]

So long as the achievement reward isn't something ridiculous, I don't mind. Something miniscule, but should be applies to each character that unlocks it perhaps? Like +1 to strength or whatever. *shrug*

[alexei]

Hm..for item reward, what kind of achievement it should be you think? random magical item like TQ side-quest reward is quite good but for achievement, better item for tougher achievement. just opinion.

[Desnok]

I like Steam achievements, as they have a more permanent home than just in-game achievements.

[Kluga]

Yeah, but make it a nominal bonus... I wouldn't give too much of a bonus. Exploitable.

This is the problem. Creating achievements with large bonuses could make the game far easier should they be exploited. They may also take away focus from quests and the storyline. That being said, achievements of some kind would be great. For example, I enjoyed the Borderlands achievements very much

[Panthro]

Not a fan of achievements at all, I really don't see the point.

Some people like them though, for whatever reason...

[Iceciro]

I couldn't care any less about achievements. I feel they were something every other company felt compelled to add after xbox's became somewhat popular. And I think they're part of the cancer that's killing the industry, where every company does the same thing.

[yerkyerk]

And I think they're part of the cancer that's killing the industry, where every company does the same thing.

Yes, because they're eh... harmful in what way?

[myrmidon]

i hate achievements because the 360. they are usless YOU GET GAMER POINTS YAAAAAAA NOW PEOPLE WILL KNOW IM A BIG NERD OF THIS GAME!!!!!!!!

.....pointless....BUT if they actually give you +5 to strength or w/e.Then i would actually care for them.

[Iceciro]

Yes, because they're eh... harmful in what way?

Not achievements specifically, just the overwhelming samey-ness that's become part of the industry lately. Sort of like how every MMO publisher tells the developers they want it to be a WoW-killer, with that level of success.

[Shinrou]

Make the achievements give player some LITTLE boosts in stats. Also don't make any easy achievements either. Maybe some hard challenge that gives you +1% fire resist for example. The hardcore players could give a slight boosts to the character but they really should be MINIMAL bonuses that don't make them "overpowered" even if they completed them all.

Would make them more than "meh" to the vast majority of gamers, but not too important to give any headache if you can't finish them anyway. A golden middle road.

[Renevent]

Regular achievements (like Xbox Live) don't really interest me...but achievements with actual rewards can be cool. I've been playing King's Bounty: Armored Princess and they have like 10 medals that give rewards. Each medal has varying levels and require different actions.

For instance, there's one that requires you to kill Orcs 20 times, and at level 1 you get +1 intelligence. When you kill 50, then you get +2 int, and so on.

In Grim Dawn terms, there could be all kinds of stuff like kill X boss 10 times (then 25, then 50), find X number of uniques (which increases your magic find or something), kill 10,000 undead, and so on. Each medal/badge having different levels, rewards, and requirements.

Could be a cool mechanic and get the player to hunt certain things instead of just kill bosses.

[yerkyerk]

Not achievements specifically, just the overwhelming samey-ness that's become part of the industry lately. Sort of like how every MMO publisher tells the developers they want it to be a WoW-killer, with that level of success.

I fail to see the connection between publishers forcing devs to make WoW-clones and an indie company possibly creating an achievement system..

Anyway, on-topic; I don't think rewarding the character in stats is necessary; with TQ it was quite fun to partake in challenges just for the heck of it (zero deaths on xMAX, naked hardcore, Uber 100 deaths challenge, etc...). If the player can defeat the achievement, I don't think it's a good idea to make the game less challenging for them by giving them additional statboosts.

What I would like to see is in-game trophies and such. But that's best suited for the hero's mansion (or whatever it's called) - and it is likely that that will only make it to DLC, if at all.

[chris01]

great idea yayy for Achievments :):)

[heron]

mythos achievements;

http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Mythos/Achievements

[Darktruth77]

yeah something like that can be nice.

[Disturbed]

I like achievements also. I would love to see them in the game. They could even be class specific, difficulty specific, also you should recieve some sort of a reward for completing achievements but it shouldn`t be too big in order not to make the player do things just to achieve them. The reward should be something like currency (iron) or some bonus XP

[Disturbed]

mythos achievements;

http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Mythos/Achievements

Also a good idea.

[TiLT]

It can give the player a goal after having completed the game. But achievements such as 'kill 1 satyr' and 'complete the main quest' are a bit pointless, as you'll finish them anyway..

"Complete the main quest" isn't as pointless as you'd think, particularly for a game that isn't very story driven, such as Titan Quest. I think the completion rate for most games is way below 50%, so an achievement for actually killing the last boss is reasonable to expect.

[Iggy]

As topic, likes or dislikes?
Let's discuss.

I hate them. Just a very poor way to create more content, while actually creating none. A little pat on the head, "great, you killed 19071242324 chickens! You earned the CHICKEN MASTER title!!!". I really dont get why people are so excited about that.

Now, whatever rock your boat, But i'd rather GrimDawn to focus on real gameplay.

[Renevent]

An achievement is just as real gameplay wise as "totally awesome purple unique boots of power" dropping...

[Iggy]

An achievement is just as real gameplay wise as "totally awesome purple unique boots of power" dropping...

Is it now?

They are starting a new company, a new game. Time is of the essence, and the number of functionnalities they can implement is very limited. They have most likely a tight budget and have to think hard on whatever they decide to put in the game.

Now tell me, you'd rather them to implement this last skill that complement a class, make sure the game is as bug free as possible, or give you a nice title because you killed 100 orcs?

I mean, if they can do both, great. But working in the videogame industry, i know it doesnt go that way. Well, if they can manage it, kudo to them. I dont mind achievements being in the game, i just see them for what they are.

[TiLT]

One of the nice things about Achievements is that they are very easy to add as long as they are planned properly. If using the Steam achievement system this is particularly true since the interface has already been made for them. When using an internal achievement system, development time will mostly be spent developing the interface used to present these achievements.

It gets a bit more complex if they want to create a "hack-proof" achievement system of their own, but I don't think this is their priority.

[Renevent]

Is it now?

They are starting a new company, a new game. Time is of the essence, and the number of functionnalities they can implement is very limited. They have most likely a tight budget and have to think hard on whatever they decide to put in the game.

Now tell me, you'd rather them to implement this last skill that complement a class, make sure the game is as bug free as possible, or give you a nice title because you killed 100 orcs?

I mean, if they can do both, great. But working in the videogame industry, i know it doesnt go that way. Well, if they can manage it, kudo to them. I dont mind achievements being in the game, i just see them for what they are.

That wasn't your point, and not what I was responding to.

[Iggy]

Now, whatever rock your boat, But i'd rather GrimDawn to focus on real gameplay.

That was exactly my point. I'd rather GrimDawn to work on actual features in the time they have. If what Tilt said is true, and achievements are easy to plug-in, then great, everybody is happy. GrimDawn will still need to hire someone to work on them, or put that in the schedule of somebody who could be doing something else.

As for being "real gameplay", which was your point. No, it isnt. It can makes you play more, if you like to gather achievements, and that's cool. Some of my friends like to collect all the coins in their game, explore every little part of the maps, nothing wrong with that. But that isnt new gameplay elements. That just makes you reuse existing gameplay, not discover new one.

Real gameplay is a new ability, a new system on weapons that gives you differents strategies, new bosses, mercenaries, i dont know, the list can go on and on. Killing chickens just use the already existing mechanics of killings stuff. That's already existing in the game. Chickens are mobs like others, that's another element, already in the game. To reward you for doing it over and over doesnt bring any new gameplay element there.

Now if you are talking about it giving you the incent to kill chickens, then yes, it can do that, it creates replayability for you. That's great. But it isnt new gameplay. It's just inviting you to do some things again. Or to do them all. But the gameplay was there, the achievement just pat you on the head for doing it.

Now, Gameplay could be linked to achievements, as giving you rewards that will effectively change the way you could play (unique skills and so on). But that wasnt exactly what we were talking about.

Edit : for clarification, sorry about that. I dont think i changed the meaning of the post.

[Renevent]

You edited your post and removed the gameplay bit you said...but whatever. I don't care to push the point because you know what you said and that's exactly what I was responding to. If your concern is time and you would rather them focus somewhere else that's a different story and reasonable.

[Iggy]

Sorry, i often go back to make sure my post is clear. I guess i should take more time reading it through the first time, but there's always things that dont get conveyed properly until you read it a few more times.
That, and english isnt my native language, so i have to pay extra attention.

[TiLT]

People who say achievements don't add to gameplay don't really understand what they're about, or have only seen achievement lists for poorly implemented games.

Achievements done right add another layer of challenge for the player. For example, a first-person shooter might reward you for playing through the entire game using only one particular gun, which adds a very perceptible challenge that nobody would have done otherwise.

An achievement that you get for completing the game or a level in a set amount of time changes the gameplay rather dramatically. Suddenly you need to approach the game in a different way and have to focus on getting through encounters faster than before, perhaps even running past some of them to get faster to the end.

Similarly, an achievement for finishing a long dungeon without returning to town a single time obviously adds a new challenge.

Yes, these are things that you could have done even without the achievements. But would you have thought of doing them? Would you even have bothered without a real tangible reward at the end of the challenge?

Seen from a Diablo/Titan Quest/Torchlight viewpoint, achievements are similar to quests, except in that they break the 4th wall more than a quest ordinarily does. A quest is merely an objective to achieve, a special challenge that often is separate from the main story. Achievements are the same.

Despite these arguments, some people still don't get the appeal of achievements. Thankfully, it appears they are in the minority at this point. I find achievements add greatly to the longevity and challenge of games I play.

[Renevent]

Sorry, i often go back to make sure my post is clear. I guess i should take more time reading it through the first time, but there's always things that dont get conveyed properly until you read it a few more times.
That, and english isnt my native language, so i have to pay extra attention.

It's cool man, and regarding development time versus importance of achievements I don't entirely disagree with you.

Although my major concern is while I like achievements in some games, sometimes they give an "arcady" feel to the game. Torchlight fits that bill pretty well, but Grim Dawn sounds like a pretty serious game so maybe it isn't appropriate.

[Iggy]

It's cool man, and regarding development time versus importance of achievements I don't entirely disagree with you.

Although my major concern is while I like achievements in some games, sometimes they give an "arcady" feel to the game. Torchlight fits that bill pretty well, but Grim Dawn sounds like a pretty serious game so maybe it isn't appropriate.

Well, i have to admit that i am a little bit allergic to achievements, so i can be a little stubborn about it.

I'll agree completely that they can change your gameplay experience, which is what matters in the end. They arent new gameplay elements per say, but as Tilt said, and i think that's what you meant too, they can change the way you play the game completely. In the end, it's all good.

But here's my grudge about it. As Tilt said :
"Yes, these are things that you could have done even without the achievements".

To me games should be about fun. I'm trying to perfect Seth when i'm playing SF4, just because i find that fun. I try to taunt my friends as much as i can while fighting them, because its fun to me, and they give me shit about it now. When playing arpgs, i try to use as few potions as possible, just because i like the fact that my character can go through without carrying tons of potions (and i die oh so often because of it).

I do this only because i find these things fun. I bugs me that you have to tell people to do this or that to have fun. Part of it is just doing whatever you like in a game (in that sense, collecting things is as valid as anything else, including achievements).

I played with friends that collected every single vanity-pet in wow, we even applied to the tournament so she could have the murkimus pet. just because she liked to have all those pets, no other reason.

I dont know, i just think that in a game, people should just experience things and do them because its fun to you, not to fill a list of rewards/titles.

Ah well, i'll stop there. i'll spare you anymore babbling :p

edit : clarification again.

[TECHNOmancer]

I'm not a big supporter of achievements, but perhaps this is because of my limited experience with them in WoW. As far as I could tell, they were implemented in that game as a means of commiting players' time without adding much, if any, new content.

As TiLT mentioned, achievements can be used to break the fourth wall, which is something that I strongly oppose. It seems to me that the consensus is to have an achievement system that provides some nominal bonuses to a character -- limited attribute improvements, trophies, titles -- and that is appealing to me. Implementing a system that goes so far as to 'publish' a player's achievements beyond the game world breaks the believeability of the world and my own suspension of disbelief.

TECHNOmancer

[Mochnant]

I'm strongly in favor of Steam achievements, if for no other reason that the free advertising it provides due to the way Steam handles them. There is a personal community page that many people view that shows all the achievements your friends are earning. I've noticed games (and then bought them) I had not heard of or known were available via this list.

If they can unlock ingame things, that's even better. I think achievements give the game a nice extra layer of polish.

[alexei]

They are starting a new company, a new game. Time is of the essence, and the number of functionnalities they can implement is very limited. They have most likely a tight budget and have to think hard on whatever they decide to put in the game.


I agree with you. We shouldn't put too much pressure on the dev team with our wishes. They just a small indie dev and making their first product as bug-free as possible is more important.

Anyway, our discussion is not pointless. It could contribute to dev to give idea about their next-to-come content, with the DLC. And it doesn't hurt to just having discussion. Yep.

Now, back to discussion, I think the mythos achivement is cool and quite good/fun. And achievement "kill X boss 5 time" is not really difficult at all. any body can do it as long as they have time to repeat.

Something much difficult I think is like the CS:Condition Zero mission. "Kill 5 enemy with headshot in a row" or "kill 5 guys in a row with a knife" or "kill 5 enemy with grenade in a shot" or "blind 2 guys with flashbang and kill them with knife". that is more difficult i think. well, this is GD not CS of course.

so, something like "kill 50 skeleton with volcanic orb in a shot"?! :rolleyes:

[Jerich]

Achievements are pretty much an industry standard right now. In general, a more than a super majority of players like them and the evidence I have looked at seems to indicate games with achievements do better on average than games without them. Not adding them would be rediculous.

That being said, a ton of game companies are trying to jump on the bandwagon that Pogo and Xbox Live started and many of them are rediculously bad at it. Creating good achievements is a tricky business and they can really mess up your game if done incorrectly.

Right now I am writing an article on achievements on achievements for the Runic Games fansite. Since Grim Dawn is also an ARPG, I will post some of my thoughts about there here when I finish.

- Jerich

[paulusx]

I'm impartial to achievements (Think only games i have with them are CoD MP and Sacred 2). Have liked the one's in Sacred 2. Some are a bit lame eg: obtaining lvl 5 for a character but others like visiting all towns or completing the game without dying made the game a bit more challenging.
Idea for an reward...random (selective) item reward for successfully killing mini-boss eg, without dying, running away for health (leaving fight to buy potions) or % of critical hits during fight. Item reward dependent on mini-boss, someone mentioned +5 to undead for undead mini-boss ???