Realistic Item Drops?

[oasisbhrnw]

TQ took a more realistic approach to item drops. You could see the actual armor they would drop, melee characters drop melee gear, animals dropped no gear, etc. Whereas in D2 you could kill a mosquito and it could drop plate mail. Personally, I prefer the D2 method of anything dropping an item of it's level or lower, but I can see why people would prefer the TQ method as well. I was just wondering which was going to be implemented in Grim Dawn.

[Renevent]

It's a modified/tweaked version of TQ from what I understand. Basically monsters will still drop what they wear from the most part, but, the amount is going to be reduced. This will be an improvement for two reasons:

a) Less junk for the players to pickup and sort through also less screen cluttering

b) Performance increases due to the CPU having to generate so many drop (supposedly this was pretty intensive).

[myrmidon]

tq was perfect for item drop. i hate diablo 2 its all like wow!! look that guy looks like hes wearing cool armor and he doesn't drop it. but diablo doesn't have cool armor so lets change that. to silver fall when you see a zombie troll with a huge flaming sword and he doesn't drop it for some reason. i find that really annoying to have in a game.

[yerkyerk]

I think both systems have their merits, but the TQ one was objectively seen the most awesome one. Not the best one per se; if you were looking for a specific item, you had to grind the same enemies over and over (well, in D2 you'd just go to the same area over and over again cause you'd have a bigger chance there, so not much difference there). Worse though, enemies with no equipment were rather unrewarding to kill. The only thing you'd get from animals were relics (and sometimes formulae in IT). And everyone's stash was already littered with relics and charms from all difficulties, because you might just possibly need them as an ingredient for a recipe.

And you'd find a shitload of standard monster equipment uniques (bows and spears).

The What You See Is What You Get (or WYSIWYG in short) as it's called, will make a return in GD, but it will be slightly changed. I'm not sure what changes are coming to it though.

[IndigoAK]

b) Performance increases due to the CPU having to generate so many drop (supposedly this was pretty intensive).

Is this really an issue anymore though? Who doesn't own a least a dual-core processor?

AMD stopped making single-core processors like six years ago and Intel doesn't even advertise the ones it makes.

[StrikeQ]

Is this really an issue anymore though? Who doesn't own a least a dual-core processor?

AMD stopped making single-core processors like six years ago and Intel doesn't even advertise the ones it makes.

Doesn't matter if the game doesn't have decent multi-threading.

My system far surpasses the requirements of TQ, yet I still get slowdowns/freezes at times (though seems may have something to do with the Miles sound files, at least part of it).

[Executioneer]

yes I agree, there were too many junk items in tq that would slow down in terms of performance, but it would not pay to make every monster one-hit-killable since it would make it too easy.

if anyone played sacred 2, there was a timer on every item that when not collected, it would disappear forever. is it possible to implement a similar idea here as well.

bdw i support the tq version that like yerkyerk said, what you see is what you get. what's more when you see a foe equipping an item you need, you are more determined to get it, which sometimes results in a big loss (had an assasin in orient 0 deaths uber still in normal who after lethalling a tigerman pack leader got overwwhelmed by all the tigerman archers:().

[Renevent]

Is this really an issue anymore though? Who doesn't own a least a dual-core processor?

AMD stopped making single-core processors like six years ago and Intel doesn't even advertise the ones it makes.

I don't know, it's just what they have said. According to them, through tweaks like this and various other things they have improved the performance of the game.

[Corpsecrank]

Is this really an issue anymore though? Who doesn't own a least a dual-core processor?

AMD stopped making single-core processors like six years ago and Intel doesn't even advertise the ones it makes.

That's not true at all AMD still makes single core processors to this day. Have a look:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007671%2050001028%20600030235&IsNodeId=1&name=Single-Core

There are still plenty of people playing games on single core processors either because they are gaming from an older machine or because they are using a laptop.

I know about 5 or 6 people right off hand that can't afford to go buy a new PC so they are still using some ancient junker for everything they do.

Doesn't matter if the game doesn't have decent multi-threading.

My system far surpasses the requirements of TQ, yet I still get slowdowns/freezes at times (though seems may have something to do with the Miles sound files, at least part of it).

That sounds like an EAX issue to me. I remember another game I was playing had some kind of issue with EAX and there was a fix for it and what you are describing sounds a lot like the issue I was dealing with at the time.

Audio can cause stuttering and slow downs in a game if there is a problem with it some where. A good example is the problem they had in COD Black Ops where the audio was causing a lot of issues such as stuttering and slow downs for some people and not for others. Just depends on your set up I guess.

[doublebuck]

b) Performance increases due to the CPU having to generate so many drop (supposedly this was pretty intensive).

Is this really an issue anymore though? Who doesn't own a least a dual-core processor?

AMD stopped making single-core processors like six years ago and Intel doesn't even advertise the ones it makes.

I bought my current computer around 2008, dual core, best graphics card etc. Even so, if I go to e.g egypt in TQ with a character that can kill the infinitely spawning skeletons without me having to do anything, after about 10 minutes the game starts to seriously slow down. After around 30 minutes, it becomes unplayable. I suspect it's somehow related to the loot drops that are piling up, and my friends also have this "issue" in TQ so it's not just my setup.

[medierra]

The change is primarily for gameplay reasons. One of the biggest complaints about TQ was the massive amount of junk items that dropped. This was bad both from a visual clutter and economy balancing perspective. Another major detraction was that drops became much more predictable. Certain enemies, you knew were never going to drop certain items, which sometimes made them less exciting to kill. However, there were also aspects of the system that people really liked, so we're trying to create a hybrid system that delivers more of the best of both worlds.

The most significant change is simply that broken armor doesn't drop and when broken weapons drop (would look silly for enemies to ragdoll while holding onto a sword) their name isn't visible and they quickly fade out. A much smaller amount of common items drop as well. There is no change to the way other items drop. If an enemy is holding a unique weapon, they will still drop that unique weapon.

There is also more of a chance now that some enemies will drop items they do not have equipped. Our goal is to make drops less predictable and enhance the lottery feeling of never knowing when you might get a great drop. We've pushed the limits of plausibility a bit but still tried to remain somewhat sensible about it so that you won't kill a "mosquito and it could drop plate mail". I guess an example would be that a zombie might drop a weapon even though they weren't using it. Maybe it was stuck in their body, perhaps it was.... in their pants? Who can say? So, I guess the line is basically that we're still trying to avoid being silly but we're also not adhering to 100% realism. I think the trick is to just avoid drop situations that are either break immersion because they are so implausible or are frustrating because zombie mutant giants always have flaming swords of doom but they never drop them.

In regards to economy balance, the item drop system in TQ was bad because we couldn't fully regulate the pace at which items dropped and there was too much variance in what players picked up and sold. Most people would ignore all the broken and eventually common items. However, other people picked up every single item that fell and tried to sell it even though it became incredibly tedious. I guess this is an example where people will engage in behavior that reduces their enjoyment of the game if it seems advantageous. The reality is that there were so many drops in TQ that it actually became disadvantageous from a time-management perspective to pick up everything since you were leveling more slowly in order to accumulate money that you didn't really need. We wanted to make it more rewarding to get even common drops. Now there is much more of that "scavenger" feeling that I enjoy in the beginning of most ARPGs where there is an advantage to collecting and selling everything you can and it isn't tedious.

In terms of performance, the issue was mainly a strain on graphics cards and the physics system. Each item created a "draw call" (sometimes multiple) to the graphics card. The number of draw-calls occurring at any given time is probably our most critical concern in terms of performance. Then there was also the issue that killing large numbers of enemies at once would cause dozens of items to explode out and tap the physics simulation.

[matthewfarmery]

that sounds good, and yes, TQ did drop a lot of junk as the game progresses, but at least the filter keys come in handy

but I also hope the random seed bug won't be appearing either and allows the game to drop more varied items over time, rather then dropping some stuff, then repeating. something that TQdefiler did fix

[hooby]

So I am going to kill zombies with a weapon that a zombie hid in it's pants.

[medierra]

So I am going to kill zombies with a weapon that a zombie hid in it's pants.

It's your choice. This is part of the decision-making and moral ambiguity we have subtly worked into Grim Dawn to allow for an unprecedented level of immersive character development. Who will you be? A zombie-pants-weapon user or abstainer? The choices are infinite!

[matthewfarmery]

where do I sign:D (oh wait I've already pre ordered it, so no need) :D

but maybe we could get this down in official paper and ink just to be on the same side!!! :cool:

[Ham Chunks]

I bought my current computer around 2008, dual core, best graphics card etc. Even so, if I go to e.g egypt in TQ with a character that can kill the infinitely spawning skeletons without me having to do anything, after about 10 minutes the game starts to seriously slow down. After around 30 minutes, it becomes unplayable. I suspect it's somehow related to the loot drops that are piling up, and my friends also have this "issue" in TQ so it's not just my setup.

The problem there is that the loot never disappears. There's got to be a way to dump that memory and get rid of the items that don't get picked up

[matthewfarmery]

stuff should disappear after a few game days, only natural

beside in TQ, a few weapons smiths were always complaining due to the lack of iron :D

So the stuff that gets dropped and ignored by the player could find its way back to the smiths to make better weapons, and beside, that is something else that should be fixed, smiths should have a better selection of goods on offer. The problem with TQ is, most sellers might have had only a trickle of decent stuff on sale, as most players would quickly find better stuff through monster drops, or if there was a decent item, too expensive to be worth getting

some more food for thought

[Roros]

(...) However, other people picked up every single item that fell and tried to sell it even though it became incredibly tedious. I guess this is an example where people will engage in behavior that reduces their enjoyment of the game if it seems advantageous.

There needs to be a term for this, is there a term for this?

It's something I've philosophised on for longer than I can remember, but I first started really pondering this effect in Supreme Commander 1. You can tell workers to reclaim mass either by patrolling or clicking scraps manually, but by patrolling they will be a little slower in doing it, basically doing a "get in position" routine even though they aren't planning on moving.
The thing then was at the start of every match you click every little tree, patch of moss, and pebble in a frenzy to get that tiny bit of head start. Everyone hates doing it, everyone does it, and everyone will tell you to simply not do it if you hate it.

An example that might be more familiar to most of us is the mining in both Mass Effects. Even though I hated it, I found myself frontloading it in an attempt to get ahead a little. Do we chalk it up to poor game design or am I the one at fault?

[hooby]

A zombie-pants-weapon user or abstainer? The choices are infinite!

So, your game is going to be released in Japan too? :D

[matthewfarmery]

those crazy japs, they are up for anything, well almost:D

[frustaro]

I really like the idea of realistic loot, a bit like it was in Baldur's Gate (for example, a hobgoblin bandit armed with a bow would drop leather armor, bows, arrows, a short sword, and some random coins).
The idea of beasts, giant bats for example, dropping coins armors and weapons sounds a bit ... clumsy.
Also, instead of distributing 'loot' (let's say richness: goods to sell and coins) little by little on every enemies, it would be more realistic to leave much of that in chests and treasures in the end of 'dungeons'.
Peace

[Haaznahnuf]

I don't know if it was a bug, but in TQ, tombs delivered only armors and jewellery and no weapons. Most of the time, the armors were basic.

Also,
There is also more of a chance now that some enemies will drop items they do not have equipped. [...] We've pushed the limits of plausibility a bit but still tried to remain somewhat sensible about it [...] we're still trying to avoid being silly but we're also not adhering to 100% realism.These added items could in fact add to the "realism" of the mob. I am looking for a lot of humans dropping the OTHER weapons-set and some personals (letters, books about lore), a veteran warrior dropping a good family knife, and some chocolates (rare food), monsters dropping reagents, ores and ingredients, a twisted shaman dropping a collection of silly remnants, a satyre-like Chtonian dropping some poetry, ...

[Kayden]

What if garbage loot wasn't garbage? What if you could collect 2-5 broken armors and combine them to make a normal/improved/advanced/superquality base item to be combined with other reagents for crafting.

You could also tie this to the NPC finding aspect where you have to find the NPC that combines things. At first, he takes two broken swords and makes a normal sword. Eventually, you find an anvil and this lets him combine 3 broken swords to make an improved sword that would have some kind of benefit to crafting (one mod gets +1, +5%, 3 more armor, whatever makes sense). Then, you find a mythril hammer. This lets him combine 4 items to make an advanced base item that gets more benefit to crafting (maybe an extra modifier or a 50% boost to a modifier you add, again, whatever makes sense). Further, you eventually find a phoenix egg in a volcano or something. He uses this to construct a forge that burns super hot and helps further purify the metals making superawesome base sword of readiness to enchant +5 (this gets double bonuses, 4 mods instead of 3, crafted item has an aura or flashy particle effect...).

Alternative... or even additionally (OPPORTUNITY COST, HOOOOOOO), broken items might be broken, but not useless. You can bring the broken items to a different NPC you find and he can attempt to salvage base components. That broken sword might have a pommel that grants defense, a hilt that raises accuracy, or a blade with increased damage. Armor could give thicker plating with more defense, lighter plating that reduces requirements, or tighter straps that improve your speed because you don't have to slow down when your chest piece nails you in the face while you run!

You could find him an enchanted magnifying glass that improves the quality of his finds. Get him a seamstress kit to improve his salvaging chances on cloth armors. Get him some pliers to increase effectiveness of salvaging chain mails. There can be varying qualities of these tools so salvaging each item type can be improved to different degrees based on difficulty to obtain.

You can even extend this into cosmetics where you can take the huge spiky pauldrons off of Broken Armor of Looking Cool and put them on Godly Statted Armor with +4 to Looking Like a Dork... more or less Transmogrify, but on the component level for each piece. A lot of crazy work, but ideas are fun.

The two NPCs could then be used to make a base item with improved stats to apply supplemental components to further increase stats. It's a system that scales however you want. If you want gear to not be flashy, a handle that adds 1 accuracy is still great. However, if you want crazy f2p korean MMO loot, you can have hilts that offer 500 accuracy or blades that shoot fire... It's an end game solution that makes trash loot useful and allows the player to make their own loot and adds replay.


Essentially... Did you ever play Vagrant Story? You made your weapons by swapping components you salvaged elsewhere. I always thought that'd make a good ARPG. Take a staff but put a heavy axe heads on both ends. Or take a bardiche and put a flail on the end... or a crossbow that shoots axes covered in fire... Different components would affect the equip stats in different ways. The handles would set dexterity requirements, the blades set strength requirements. Everything has a weight that sets attack speed... One thing I always found odd was dexterity determining attack speed. Speed is a matter of force. How hard can you swing how fast? Without dexterity, you'll probably miss, but physics says speed is the realm of force.

Aaaaaaannnyway... I'm babbling... but I'm looking forward to Alpha.

The change is primarily for gameplay reasons. One of the biggest complaints about TQ was the massive amount of junk items that dropped. This was bad both from a visual clutter and economy balancing perspective. Another major detraction was that drops became much more predictable. Certain enemies, you knew were never going to drop certain items, which sometimes made them less exciting to kill. However, there were also aspects of the system that people really liked, so we're trying to create a hybrid system that delivers more of the best of both worlds.

The most significant change is simply that broken armor doesn't drop and when broken weapons drop (would look silly for enemies to ragdoll while holding onto a sword) their name isn't visible and they quickly fade out. A much smaller amount of common items drop as well. There is no change to the way other items drop. If an enemy is holding a unique weapon, they will still drop that unique weapon.

There is also more of a chance now that some enemies will drop items they do not have equipped. Our goal is to make drops less predictable and enhance the lottery feeling of never knowing when you might get a great drop. We've pushed the limits of plausibility a bit but still tried to remain somewhat sensible about it so that you won't kill a "mosquito and it could drop plate mail". I guess an example would be that a zombie might drop a weapon even though they weren't using it. Maybe it was stuck in their body, perhaps it was.... in their pants? Who can say? So, I guess the line is basically that we're still trying to avoid being silly but we're also not adhering to 100% realism. I think the trick is to just avoid drop situations that are either break immersion because they are so implausible or are frustrating because zombie mutant giants always have flaming swords of doom but they never drop them.

In regards to economy balance, the item drop system in TQ was bad because we couldn't fully regulate the pace at which items dropped and there was too much variance in what players picked up and sold. Most people would ignore all the broken and eventually common items. However, other people picked up every single item that fell and tried to sell it even though it became incredibly tedious. I guess this is an example where people will engage in behavior that reduces their enjoyment of the game if it seems advantageous. The reality is that there were so many drops in TQ that it actually became disadvantageous from a time-management perspective to pick up everything since you were leveling more slowly in order to accumulate money that you didn't really need. We wanted to make it more rewarding to get even common drops. Now there is much more of that "scavenger" feeling that I enjoy in the beginning of most ARPGs where there is an advantage to collecting and selling everything you can and it isn't tedious.

In terms of performance, the issue was mainly a strain on graphics cards and the physics system. Each item created a "draw call" (sometimes multiple) to the graphics card. The number of draw-calls occurring at any given time is probably our most critical concern in terms of performance. Then there was also the issue that killing large numbers of enemies at once would cause dozens of items to explode out and tap the physics simulation.