Copy Protection Question

[Faithful]

Hello, I would dearly like to support your efforts, and see this title hit the market one day.

I would like to know though, will Grim Dawn be copy protection free (i.e. DRM free)?

I know it is early on, but I can only imagine that you have a preference in regard to this for the game.

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

[CaptainDingo]

"Proper" DRM costs money... I imagine it will be handled similarly to Torchlight, where you basically just download the game, put in the key that was e-mailed to you to unlock it, and go on your merry way.

Of course this is complete speculation, but that's what would make the most sense for a small developer.

[medierra]

"Proper" DRM costs money... I imagine it will be handled similarly to Torchlight, where you basically just download the game, put in the key that was e-mailed to you to unlock it, and go on your merry way.

Of course this is complete speculation, but that's what would make the most sense for a small developer.

Yep, this is pretty much how it will work for the downloadable version. If we work out a deal with a publisher to also do a boxed retail version they might demand some sort of DRM. If you'll be downloading it online though you don't need to worry about any of that nonsense.

[Panthro]

Well it's good to hear that there will be no obnoxious DRM methods used. For every game that I don't buy because of stupid DRM decisions (GTA IV anyone?) I do like to support someone more worthwhile.

[yerkyerk]

"Proper" DRM costs money...
Heh, "proper" DRM costs money two ways :)

I expect there to be a download limit though (or perhaps a limited IP restriction). Both which I expect will be easily reset after sending a mail to Crate employees.

And that's why I love Steam. Basically it's a huge DRM, but no other DRM means are necessary (and it's easy for auto-updates).

[Llama8]

And that's why I love Steam. Basically it's a huge DRM, but no other DRM means are necessary (and it's easy for auto-updates).

Doesn't mean publishers don't still put other DRM on Steam games...

But yeah, I'd be very happy if/when GD doesn't have DRM. :)

[k4llu5]

Glad to hear this, as I still believe that S2 suffered big time cause of this.

[Strider]

If you'll be downloading it online though you don't need to worry about any of that nonsense.

Way to go, thank you!

[jameswhite1979]

Is there a large $ figure for the publishing of games via steam?

[yerkyerk]

I think they just take a cut from the profit per game, something like 30% or so...

[Rhis]

I think they just take a cut from the profit per game, something like 30% or so...

Ding! We have a winner.

[Iceciro]

Yeeesh, is it really 30% though?

And how does that work for those of us who buy it here and then get keys from you later? Do they make you pay their cut for each of us? 0_o

[yerkyerk]

Or we download it directly without Steam interference.. I don't think it's a clear-cut answer yet.
I'd prefer Steam personally, as that auto-updates and has no install limits (unless the publisher is really thick). But I wouldn't be surprised if we get the similar as Torchlight offered for direct purchases; an install-limited (15 times or so?) digital version of the game that we can download from the dev's website, of which the install limit can be reset upon request of the owner.

But medierra would know better than I.

[Faithful]

If there are install limits that means DRM will be part of of the game, does it not? It is some form of Digital Rights Management at that point, unless I am not understanding something properly.

[yerkyerk]

It is a form of DRM yes (just as SecuRom, Steam and pretty much anything that doesn't allow you to blatantly copy-paste the game). The DRM's going to be minimal; and I'm not sure if install limits is going to be the DRM used (although that seems likely, if the keys aren't coupled to Steam). But if there is no DRM at all, the game can pirated with zero effort by everyone and your grandmother.

[Aetius]

But I wouldn't be surprised if we get the similar as Torchlight offered for direct purchases; an install-limited (15 times or so?) digital version of the game that we can download from the dev's website, of which the install limit can be reset upon request of the owner.

I'm interested in donating, but I have to say this, painful though it is. Install limits implies DRM, and web-enabled DRM at that, phone-home type stuff. That's a dicey prospect with a startup company, because the servers that enable the installs could go away at any time - leaving the game unable to be re-installed and eventually useless.

Think about who your customers are, especially now with the donations and pre-orders. These are people who are giving Crate real money on the promise of a game - not the game itself. And yet there is a feeling that somehow these customers need phone-home install limits to keep them from pirating the game? You've already got their money. How far do customers have to go to earn the trust of the developers and not get intentional bugs included in their software?

[yerkyerk]

Heh, I'm just a fan like you, nothing I say should be taken as an official statement, just pure speculation.

But really; how many games with zero DRM are there?

We all know the game will be cracked and pirated, but if there's not even a crack necessary, that seems a bit like asking for problems.

[Rhis]

There are no plans for install limits at this time.

[Aetius]

But really; how many games with zero DRM are there?

Plenty - Gratuitous Space Battles (http://positech.co.uk/gratuitousspacebattles/register.html) and World of Goo (http://2dboy.com/games.php), to give to two examples. Totally, completely DRM free, and commercial successes for their developers.

We all know the game will be cracked and pirated, but if there's not even a crack necessary, that seems a bit like asking for problems.

Yeah, but keep in mind - they've already got a significant portion of the fan's money. The customers have already paid. Who cares about the pirates? They were never going to pay in the first place.

[yerkyerk]

A significant portion of the fan's money? In that case, I agree, it should be DRM-free. But I don't think they have gotten all that much money to begin with. Sure they're probably getting a lot of cash if you're considering they're donations/pre-orders. But I suspect the lionpart of the money will have to come in after they finished the product.

Ah well, perhaps DRM-free is the way to go. I'd hate to see this project get completely shot down due to piracy though.

[Iceciro]

The best thing they can do is follow the Stardock approach: DRM free core game, but the patches are only coughed up on Steam/Impulse/With a Valid Key, meaning that getting a fully patched game requires a bought game.

Let your continued support and DLC for this game serve as the DRM.

[yerkyerk]

Well, the problem with that is that if only one key gets pirated, everyone on the entire globe can download till they drop; including the DLC content and patches (although for DLC you might require a new leaked key)

Perhaps an IP-tracker is a solution; it could bans keys that are download 3-4 times within 1 hour, all from different regions that are more than 1,000km apart each.
Haven't heard of that one before though.

[ForNein]

Fact is, there is no solution that will prevent piracy or allow the paying supporters to play without some sort of hassle.

I think the best solution is an auto-updater included with the game that requires a log in to an account that Crate maintains. Our game key should be associated with this passworded account. If you don't have a real key, you don't get patches.

This auto-updater can be an executable that needn't be installed. That way, no one can bitch about SecuROM or rootkits or anything of the like. The biggest hassle to the fans is simply registering an account and activating a key. Release patches and new content via this system.

Of course, there are ways around all that anyways so I guess it doesn't really matter.

[Llama8]

Well, the problem with that is that if only one key gets pirated, everyone on the entire globe can download till they drop; including the DLC content and patches

I don't know, *scratches head* surely if you had to create an account with the serial key that would make it a lot harder for all and sundry to get the patches (unless someone uploaded the patches once they'd been downloaded, or posted some account details for the pirated key).

*shrugs* They'll get round it sooner or later (proabably sooner) whatever you do.

[4987354987]

I'm for Steam. Have some games here and I am very happy with it.

[Mochnant]

I honestly can't see a place for any DRM other than Steam (if you count that) with Grim Dawn, and I'm glad the developers indicate they agree.

Activations, IP blocks, etc aren't going to slow down piracy at all. Even the biggest publishers don't expect it to do anything. They *hope* it will slow down week 1 piracy, but I've never seen anything to indicate it even manages that. Considering this is a smaller indy title, I think the devs are right to focus on building good will among fans, and getting the message out about Grim Dawn.

[Renevent]

I think that's an assumption...the fact big publishers pay good money for DRM tells me they think it's at least worth the price and their perception (probably based on market reports) is DRM *is* saving them sales.

I don't think they would keep throwing their money away title after title if they really didn't believe that.

With that said I am glad Grim Dawn won't have activation limits or anything like that, certainly is not beneficial to me as a consumer.

One thing though, please DO NOT let pirates play online like in Borderlands. At the very least verify the CD key or something...

[Mochnant]

I think that's an assumption...the fact big publishers pay good money for DRM tells me they think it's at least worth the price and their perception (probably based on market reports) is DRM *is* saving them sales.

I don't think they would keep throwing their money away title after title if they really didn't believe that.

Not trying to start any kind of argument, but you're using your own assumption to prove my point is an assumption. You're assuming that people never waste money or spend it on things that don't work. That's just not true.

[Renevent]

Not trying to start any kind of argument, but you're using your own assumption to prove my point is an assumption. You're assuming that people never waste money or spend it on things that don't work. That's just not true.

I was just saying (not claiming what I said is fact)...companies pay good money for it...not just on one title...but title after title.

Companies may waste money here and there, I don't think they would throw it away game after game, though. And it's not just one publisher...it's pretty much every major game publisher with the budget to do so. Doesn't seem reasonable at all that all of these companies are just delusional and like throwing away their money. More reasonable to me, is that while DRM isn't really that effective, it must be at least effective enough (week 1 piracy or whatever) that the perception (backed by some kind of data) is it is in fact worth throwing all that money at it.

DRM isn't cheap, either.

[Mochnant]

I appreciate that that is your opinion on the matter.

[Panthro]

DRM will lose companies sales also.

For example, I won't buy any game that's tied into Steam, because I don't like the system (I used to have an unreliable internet connection, and the offline mode is not perfect). I also view such a measure as anti-competitive pracitce, as Steam is DRM, a service and a sales outlet. Steam is gaining a very large majority of digital sales, and the lack of competition can only be a bad thing for gamers.

I prefer to buy games from companies that treat paying customers with some respect. Everything that Crate have said so far has been great, I have my serial number and await the release of the game for download from this site when it's finished.

[Renevent]

I think it's total sales they are concerned about. If they loose 1000 sales here but pickup 1500 there...that's a net gain.

The DRM stuff is overblown anyways and the vast majority of gamers either don't care or don't know much about DRM.

[Zealuu]

The vast majority of gamers also don't pay attention to relatively indie titles early in their development cycle, whose eventual physical release depends on solid digital sales. Conversely, I'd hazard a guess that the part of the PC gamer demographic who are currently aware of this game and intent on buying it are also aware of (and generally in opposition to) DRM, and associated issues.

[Renevent]

Nah, it's going to be on Steam and stuff...the face of indie gaming has changed a lot.

[GermanZombie]

All that matters to me is that it doesn't have an install limit. I like steam for the most part, alot more now then a few years ago. I still prefer a physical copy of my games but sometimes that isn't possible. I would also like to see a way to get people who don't have real cd-keys get kicked off but I honestly don't know how any of that works or if it is really even feasible.

[shawnmck]

This topic really got me thinking about copy protection & disc based games...
I personally prefer to have a disc copy of any game. It is just a preference that I have. I've read that Crate might eventually put out a disc version of Grim Dawn, and I have even mentioned in other topics my preference to having a disc. Pirating any game has never crossed my mind, and I honestly don't know why some would cheat the hard working & talented Developers out of something they worked so hard for. But this topic got me wondering if the Employees of Crate are skeptical about offering a disc version of Grim Dawn after what happened with TQ & other games (rampant piracy)..?
I certainly don't want to give anyone the thought in the back of their mind that a disc copy floating around somewhere might end up for the purpose of being copied or whatever. So I can see how important Digital distribution is going to be with Grim Dawn. And I am totally fine with that. I will support any plan that ensures that the talented people at Crate get every penny for their efforts on this game. I would still like a disc version eventually, but I would definitely down-load the game if need be, & be happy about it.
BTW
I have 3 copies of Titan Quest, 3 copies of Immortal Throne expansion, & 2 copies of TQ gold (all bought over a period of time, & not all at once). I know I am insane, but I just couldn't help but support a game that I absolutely love & enjoy.
I so cannot stand the wait for this game.
;)

[yerkyerk]

Well, physical disc copies are more expensive and can place severe restrictions on the companies creative abilities. Unless you're a behemoth, you'll need a publisher for that, which will place demands on the game as well as take a huge cut of the profit.
Not only do you have to get physical discs somewhere, you'll need distributors, storage space, salesmen, etc..

In this day and age, digital distribution is becoming accepted as a standard format to offer your wares. It's cheaper and more direct.

Even if the game is hugely succesful and because of that might get a physical disc copy, I doubt if it's going to give much profit to the devs.

[Faithful]

Well, I am still very unsure of the direction that will be taken with Grim Dawn regarding DRM.

No limited activations does not mean no DRM.

Regarding TQ, I never purchased it due to the DRM (boy I really wanted to). It was only after the DRM was removed that I purchased a DD copy of TQ Gold through Gamersgate because I really wanted to see what the game was like and had wanted to try it for such a long time.

In recent history, Torchlight was a game I wanted to purchase and support, but with SecuRom and limited activations it too is a no sale for me personally.

I still check it out from time to time hoping the developers have removed the DRM but that seems less likely.

I guess for me, I am hoping that GD will not have any form of DRM attached to it. With more and more companies going to more restrictive DRM models it seems refreshing to come across titles that do not carry any such nonsense.

I have supported many Indie games in 2009 for the sole reason of they produced DRM free games. I have yet to play too far in several of them, but any DRM free game is typically worth supporting.

Well, there is my view anyway! :)

[medierra]

http://www.grimdawn.com/about_faq.php#q10

This topic is like the undead, it just keeps going. I thought it was about time I added it to the FAQ! :D

Beyond the unknowns that I can't answer like "what kind of DRM might a publisher impose on a boxed version", is there anything still unclear about our plans for digital distribution?

[karmacappa]

So to recap the info from the FAQ:

For direct download versions: CD-key validation when logging into online games through matchmaking services like Steam. No DRM at all for local single player or LAN play.

For boxed copies: DRM for boxed physical copies to be agreed upon between the publisher and Crate, but Crate will take the position that they don't want DRM and will try their hardest to get the publisher as close to that position as possible.

Understood, and thanks Medierra!

[gdansk]

It is good news that it will be DRM free! Paradox Interactive has developed and published DRM free games for sometime, and they seem to be quite profitable. You could literally run their games with out a CD and copy and paste it onto another computer and still work. Where GD comes in here, is exactly that, will I be able to have installed on multiple computers? If so, will I be limited to running it on one computer at a time (as if it were CD based)? That would be fine with me, as long as I don't need to buy another copy just to have it installed on 2 different computers simultaneously. But I'm willing to bet that my brother will want to play LAN with me and he is rather stingy!

[Llama8]

http://www.grimdawn.com/about_faq.php#q10

This topic is like the undead, it just keeps going. I thought it was about time I added it to the FAQ! :D

DRM topics always will, regardless of what you post where. Either due to people posting before reading, or it being something very close to gamers hearts (or both).

[Malpheas]

Yeah, I remember the malarky we had over at Sacred 2 Forums about DRM. Yikes. Good ol' Shagsbeard.

[Aetius]

http://www.grimdawn.com/about_faq.php#q10

Thanks guys. Going to pre-purchase now. Hopefully Wine support will be workable. :)

[Geotarrr]

I don't have yet a way for online payment, which is why I haven't sponsored the game yet. But I (and probably everyone here at the forum) will pay for the game, no matter out there will be :furious: pirated version. But I personally hope that there will be retail/box version, as that will be easier for me to buy.

As someone mentioned one way to "punish" the users of the pirate versions, will be to prevent them from playing online at the official servers. Any protection wouldn't stop the pirates, we all know that... :(

[Void(null)]

Sadly one of the best ways to prevent piracy is the removal of LAN play.

Unique CD Key + No LAN = No Hamachi = No Pirated MP.

But personally I am a huge fan of LAN, so that's a really bitter pill to swallow.

[Llama8]

Yup, if HGL had LAN a few friends would still be playing it...
:(

[yerkyerk]

Removing LAN might reduce piracy, it'll definetely reduce long-term interest and overall interest in the product.

I don't care too much; you can just play online with friends, but it's another good addition that has been all but killed by anti-piracy restrictions.

[Agouti]

Sad fact is the only way to stop piracy is making something online only. Even MW2, released as steam only, has been cracked and is running steam free (SP only).

Don't get me wrong, I love steam, most every game I buy now is on steam, unless it's direct from an indie developer. Buying it at half price on steam still means more money for the developers - the cut out of a boxed copy is pretty small compared to what you pay - I heard something like $8 out of $60 - and steam is actually surprisingly good (they get 70-80% I believe).

Remember, steam is not the only digital distributor out there, there's also D2D and a few others.


Also on that note, there are a range of DRM free ways you can at least make things more difficult for people to pirate the game - requiring online/phone activation at first play or within 7 days of first play is a good way. There are a few games (and Windoze) out there which do this, I can't remember which.

I'd be willing to bet there is a reasonable number of people who will try to copy the game, by download or off a friend, and buy it if it wasn't easy. I started playing TQ from borrowing a friends copy, and ended up buying it when they wanted their disc back.

If your relying on word of mouth sales I'd say a few people will come in via this route so something to make it at least a bit difficult would probably be worth it.




Oh and in terms of LAN play, don't get rid of it - there will be plenty of people who will give it a flog on LAN but not be prepared to pay for it. Who knows, a weekend of GD'ing might get them hooked ;)


The way one game did it... um... some RTS I can't remember (starcraft? AoE3?).... anyway, you needed a CD to host a LAN game but not to join one (with limits on number of CD'd clients to non CD'd), so when you had a weekend gaming session or something the people who owned it could bring a copy and everyone could have a play without having to crack it or something - I'd think of this as sort of a limited time demo for the others at the LAN.

Do make it smart enough not to play LAN over hamachi/garena/tunngle etc though. Best way is a ping ceiling on LAN games.