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View Full Version : Skills and basic controls


ExNomenDei
01-22-2010, 04:16 PM
So I'm a pretty diverse kind of gamer: I've got a PS3, a Wii, a 360, a PSP and a PC. And all of them have different controls, although they're rather similar. I also own a gameboard, which means my controls are different from most peoples'. and that made be realize that controls are icky.

In Titan Quest, you had a basic left-click button. It was attack by default and it was clear what it was for. But after that, the controls became less and less clear: Right-click was your favorite spell, because right-click meant you could more intuitively 'click on a mob and see them die' or something like that. That still worked rather well because it felt like a ranged attack in many cases: You simple clicked on the spot you wanted your Volcanic Orb, and presto, it went there.

But then you got the 1-10 buttons. They worked differently because you had to click or press the number first, and then left-click where you wanted your attack to land. This worked counter-intuitively because you were so used to just clicking where the attack had to land once, not press a button first.

Logically, I propose this: You press the button and your skill lands wherever your mouse cursor was at the moment you pressed the button. Only when you use your mouse do you get to aim first. We see this method used on the afore-mentioned consoles too, because it's more logically to aim before firing than to fire and then aim before your character actually does something.

However, that doesn't solve another problem I found myself struggling with: Going from skillset to skillset. I played a new character and gradually learned where my certain skills were: My Volcanic Orb was on RMB, my potions were on E and R (if I remember correctly), and all the rest of my spells were on buttons 1-9. I had put them there myself but I didn't really think through how I put them there, I just had to remember what kind of spell did what.

Switching to another character then proved problematic. I was so used to pressing '4' to get my AOE spell that turning on-and-off my passive spell, which was on 4 on my other character, was a serious consequence. What other types of games tell me, however, is this: Certain buttons do certain things. If Titan Quest had forced me to learn that '2' was my AOE-spell, and on my other character it was the same thing, I would associate '2' with AOE. If my character didn't have one, well, I likely wouldn't have tries pressing that button in the first place, would I?

If you give each button a certain type of ability, or spell, or whatever, you can make it much easier for players to switch to a different character. If '1' is always your main damage-dealing spell, you can depend on '1' giving you that much-needed finishing blow. If '7' is always your pet-summoning spell, you get to know that button as 'resummon pet', not as 'resummon Core Dweller', and you can more accurately play multiple characters.

Reserving a few buttons for customization, at the same time, will allow the player to keep their second pet-summoning spell in reach at the same time. And if the player has two almost identical spells from different builds, the player shouldn't be forced into using one of them on the appropriate button either: If you have two damage-dealing spells, it should be possible to choose which one to put as primary spell on that damage-dealing-spell-button, and allow you to put the secondary one on the custom buttons. Another option, though perhaps a little too advanced for most players to use, is a modifier so a player can access secondary spells of the same type more quickly: Holding alt and pressing '1' could result in 'death ray' instead of 'hyper-slash', before immediately switching back to your standard skillset. Just pressing alt shortly would allow you to switch between primary and secondary skillset and allow you to hold alt to access the other skillset just as easily.

Edit: It was pointed out that this is a wall of text.

So here's a short version:

- The way Titan Quest forces you to click after activating a skill is a little backwards. You aim and then fire with a gun and the same goes for the way you think in a game. Making the skills immediately activate at the place where your mouse cursor is when you press the appropriate button makes this game much quicker and helps make it feel more fluid. The right mouse button in TQ works the same way.

- My problem with the controls in TQ are that I can't depend on one button doing a certain 'type' of skill. Since buttons don't really have a specific skill in mind for them (outside of the right and left mouse buttons, which are examples of how this would work), they tend to be arbitrary. If we make each button host a certain 'kind' of skill, like AOE, or direct attack, or pet-summoning, then new players and players who don't play 24/7 more easily remember what button does what.

- As Renevent points out, this makes the game slower when you have four different pets to summon. He states rightly that if you have to cycle through the options in some manner, the gameplay will be hindered. I think he makes a valid point.

- Therefore I propose two things. Firstly for some buttons to remain free-form, so you can make your oft-used secondary skills (like resummoning pets in the heat of battle) easier to access. My second proposal is to have the whole idea of putting certain skills on certain buttons the default, but allow you to put any skill on any button as an option, thus freeing yourself to any kind of control scheme.

Renevent
01-22-2010, 04:41 PM
I never had an issue with the controls for TQ, and I think they are the best so far in the genre.

With that said, one of the developers had already said they are making it even better by expanding controls to the other mouse buttons as well...so it sounds like we will have quite a few actions available at our fingertips.

ExNomenDei
01-22-2010, 04:45 PM
Not to try and argue with you here, since I'm not trying to turn this into an argument at all:

Would you also say that by making the controls less customizable but more alike between different characters is a minus instead of, as I propose, a plus? Or do you think both types would work equally well, because the difference is subtle (since it's just automatically putting skills in a certain place for you and you still need to learn which one's where in either case)?

Renevent
01-22-2010, 04:47 PM
I think the way it is fine and it's only real deficiency was the fact you only had one active button (right mouse). Considering this will not be the case anymore, I don't see any reason to modify the existing control scheme considering it works so well for this particular type of game.

Plus, considering the diversity of classes we will most likely get I really don't think it's even feasible to do what you are suggesting. For instance, you say have a "pet summon" button...but in TQ you can have like 4 different pets...what's the point?

TQ made some really nice advances...like assigning health/mana potions to a shared key, and a few other things. Maybe there's some more functionality like this that could be shared, but I think it's more utilitarian features rather than skills.

Malpheas
01-22-2010, 04:51 PM
Logically, I propose this: You press the button and your skill lands wherever your mouse cursor was at the moment you pressed the button. Only when you use your mouse do you get to aim first. We see this method used on the afore-mentioned consoles too, because it's more logically to aim before firing than to fire and then aim before your character actually does something.

I like this idea. The aim thing was sort of effective, but slowed combat down especially when you were trying to cast it. Also: I think that default targets for things like Heat Shield and Energy Shield should be the player.

Renevent
01-22-2010, 04:53 PM
The reason why it makes sense on the consoles is due to the fact you are using analog control sticks...it works totally different in PC games. In console games it's more of a targeting reticule rather than a cursor. With the mouse you are doing more functions and interacting at all times with the world, enemies, ui, ect.

Malpheas
01-22-2010, 04:58 PM
It isn't a question of what may have worked well in TQ, but what could work a little better in GD; why not consider it in testing rather than stonewalling things, Renevent?

Renevent
01-22-2010, 05:05 PM
Just seems obvious to me what a control scheme like this is aimed at. Based on my game experience (both PC and consoles) it just seems like a control scheme that is aimed for something else. Plus, my opinion is that TQ had a really fantastic control scheme, and I would not want it to change dramatically. I would rather have it improved...which more mouse buttons for active skills to me is a clear way of doing so.

With that said, if medierra or any of the other developers thinks this is a good idea worth trying out, I'm fine with it.

ExNomenDei
01-22-2010, 05:09 PM
Well, even for Heat/Energy Shield, you could use this system and still allow for the default to be the player. If you have your cursor on a team mate, it casts on that team mate when you press the button, and when you've got it somewhere else you cast it on yourself. That, however, might confuse some. In another topic, I mention explaining skills to players with more than just text, this is an example: By giving a ten-second tutorial when you click on a skill you can buy, this problem might be solved. Sitll, I think you get the gist of it.


@Renevent

Yes, this method might get a little clogged up if you have a lot of the same type of skills. But that was, in my opinion, a bit of a problem with TQ anyway. You want a class to have a certain concentrating point, but you don't want a class to have only direct-damage attacks either, do you? If the skillsets try to remind themselves of this kind of control input, it might be a better mixture than the 'old-style' input methods. I guess it'd require careful testing and good design.

Renevent
01-22-2010, 05:21 PM
I don't see how...you are left to arrange your skills exactly how you pleased. Your way, on the other hand, actually has some serious flaws to contend with (like the pet summon example).

Now improvements in accessibility can definitely be addressed, but I think it already is with more mouse buttons for active skills.

ExNomenDei
01-22-2010, 05:27 PM
However, if you keep some empty slots open for customization for these kinds of problems, and if you use modifiers, you can minimize these problems and keep them from affecting 99% of the builds. Besides, with pet summons, you don't generally need to summon pets in mid-battle all the time, thus you can switch skills more leisurely (by right-clicking the pet-summon button, per example) and activate that skill instead. Or you can use a modifier to scroll through available skills per button, like holding down CTRL and pressing '3' can make you see the next skill available for that button, then upon releasing CTRL you'd use that ability immediately before reverting to the 'standard' skill. They'd generally be skills you used less (like summons) and still be within easy reach during a battle.

Try it out. Try imagining you need your third type of pet: you hold CTRL and press 3 once to see your second skill then again to see the third one, then release CTRL and you cast it. That can go pretty fast if you know what you're doing, and it's only necessary once every so often.

Renevent
01-22-2010, 05:37 PM
Your seems way more complicated...I don't see how right clicking to choose a pet is more elegant then simply clicking the pet I wish to summon...especially in the heat of battle.

Try it out. Try imagining you need your third type of pet: you hold CTRL and press 3 once to see your second skill then again to see the third one, then release CTRL and you cast it.

Just sounds overly complicated, I see absolutely no benefit to this over the current skill system. That sounds cumbersome and more time consuming. TQ way...simply press 1 button to summon a pet...yours...up to 4 button presses.

I'm sorry, I just don't think that makes a lot of sense. Anyways, I'll leave it there...

medierra
01-22-2010, 06:03 PM
Holy crap! I just got assaulted by a massive wall of text!

Haha... I hope to read at least some of this at some point but seriously, if you guys keep this up I'll never get the game done. :p

ExNomenDei
01-22-2010, 06:11 PM
I agree that this example was a little cubersome. Haven't really thought it through either, actually.

But let's take another example from TQ: You're playing a diverse character with many spells. You've got four pets which you want to summon, you've got two passive skills and a whole bunch of active spells. You fill up your bar with several spells of the same type and then you reach the number 0. What do you do then? I know I tried solving it with dual skillsets myself, but it was just a pain. It required me to pres sthe button to change skills, press the button to activate the skill, click where I wanted it, and then go back to my regular skill bar. That's four button presses by and of itself, and it forces you to set a lot of skills and remember where they are as well. What I'm proposing might not even make a bit of difference in terms of speed, but at least you'll know where what skill is, and with custom buttons you still have the room to put secondary skills of the types you have multiple skills of anywhere you want. There's bound to be a gameplay mechanic that makes finding extra skills easy to find quickly, but the problem with a custom skill bar is that it's not accessible.

Thus, I have another proposal (credited from a clear-thinking friend): Make it optional. When you throw a new player into a new character with one, two, maybe three skills, it doesn't really matter how you sort them. One's bound to be passive as well so you're ignoring that one most of the time. You've got a damage-dealing spell in one slot and a healing spell in another as an example. In the spell-menu you get the option for 'auto-sorting spells' with a good hint to tell you how this works, on by default for new players. Once a player gets more than one skill on a single slot it's explained how to map a skill to your custom slots and you also get the tip that you can use full-custom mapping if you so desire by turning on the option in the appropriate menu. That way, new players can easily learn the controls, and advanced players with high-level characters don't have to be annoyed by the problems that such a system would hold.

Medierra: For you, I'll add a quick sum-up at the bottom of the first post including Renevent's objections to the system.

Edit: Added it.

Iggy
01-25-2010, 09:58 AM
I'll agree with some polish on the way skills behave, based on TQ.

Example : i dont like to go "clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick clickclickclickclickclickclick". No real point, the game isnt on how fast you can effectively ruin your mouse, but more about when to use said skills, how to spec, etc..

To be more precise, an example : Onslaught. Just like frenzy in D2, i usually put my main attack, the one you use ALL the time on the right button, that way i can just hold the right button down in the middle of a pack of mobs, or going from one monster to another. Then i'll use other skills with key numbers or left button (warwind for example) for more tactical times.

D2 does this very well, you dont have to kill you mouse to play. TQ, on the other hand...Onslaught on the right mouse button just have you character take two steps and attack, even if there's NOTHING. It just doesnt work as well.
Note : I know it says "assign it to the left button", but this just promotes heavy clicking, which doesnt bring anything to the table in my opinion.

I would say the same for the targeted spells. It seems easier to just have the spell launched wherever your cursor was. Or to the least, for hardcore fans that dont want anything changed from their holy beloved game, the option to do so.

Renevent
01-25-2010, 10:41 AM
Titan Quest is easier on your mouse than D2. You can put passive attacks on the right mouse button and hold it down...even with switching mobs. You can kill an entire group of enemies with a single mouse press/hold. Even with the left you can still hold it down and kill an enemy.