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View Full Version : Skill Trees and True Customization Versus Bloat


Scryer
01-22-2010, 12:07 PM
Alright, I think it's about time we discuss skill trees, or skill pans as I prefer them.

Skill trees are branches of skills that the developer uses to force the player down a specific path. While this does help the developer know how to balance the game at a given level. Is this the best way to customize your character, and is being creative really a bad thing for the player?

Skill pans are essentially the same thing as a skill tree except they do not force the player to "choose their path." Skill pans let the player choose their skills and only blocks lower skills until the upper tier has a certain number of points in it. Skill pans are therefore more free-wielding and customization friendly.

If every skill "tree" was converted into a skill "pan" how many skills could the developers merge or wipe from that list? How many skills would remain?

The point of asking those questions is to inquire into what the player actually needs, or wants. Should a player be forced down a branching tree or should the player be free to discover multiple variations of skills and abilities?

Which one is easier for the developer? well, if you're talking about time, a skill pan saves the developer a lot of time! Why? because you do not need millions of skills and abilities cluttering up the skill pan. Skills that are similar get merged, skills that are different get to stay. Each of these skills the player can combine, and re-combine however the player pleases, using skill re-specialization.

So, it might seem that skill pans are far superior for skill customization then a branching tree would ever be. In a game where every skill can be used to the very hardest of modes this is very important indeed!

- So lets do a quick re-cap. Skill pans allow the developers to make skills that are not similar and that can be of better variety for the player. Skill pans also "might" reduce development time because you do not need to place "bloat" into the skill "tree" to have skills with similar effects. Skill trees cause the player to loose that extra bit of customization and force them down a path they may not entirely want to go.

True customization is the ability to pick any skill and use those skills in your battles. Bloat is the similarities between more then 1 skill that do not need to be there. A game with 30+ skills per character is probably more then the player will ever max out.

Also, never leave the player "hanging" once they get to max level, you should be able to max out at least 8 skills and 4 passives (200 levels is a lot! but keep the # you can max out relatively small, without making them feel too tedious to level up.) Again all skills should scale and be usable at any point in the game even in hard modes.

I know this is one of my shorter posts, however I would like to think it has some merits and some pretty decent feedback.

Please read more about skills at this post.

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143

Llama8
01-22-2010, 12:12 PM
In addition to the last comment about not leaving the player hanging, I'd say keep the amount of character customisation reasonably constant throughout. One of the things that I didn't like about S2 was the way customisation slowed down quite a lot by lvl 50 & almost stopped by lvl 75/100 (4 skills in the first 8 levels, then your last skill at lvl 65 & skill masteries when you hit 75 points in the skill, after that it's just a case of incrimental improvements to the various values).

Kluga
01-22-2010, 12:47 PM
It's a very interesting idea/concept you raise here. There is definite merit to skill pans as you mention. It begs the question why devs of a given game would go for skill trees as opposed to a skill pan. Possibly an attempt to increase replayability or to make the game more user-friendly as there is less to consider once a player chooses a particular tree. Perhaps things like this sway devs towards a tree based system

Renevent
01-22-2010, 12:52 PM
I think I hate pretty much every idea you have posted so far :D

Anyways, It's not about forcing you down a path, it's about specialization which promotes unique builds and replayability.

Borderlands has a basic skill pan system and it is an utterly boring and shallow skill system.

Titan Quest has what's probably the deepest and most customizable skill system in the genre, I really hope they don't change it...rather just make improvements and expand it.

GermanZombie
01-22-2010, 01:41 PM
I can't really say if I want skill pans over skill trees. I was a really big fan of the way skills were set up in TQ and if they use a system similar to that I would be happy. I don't mind bloat if there are subtle variations that would change how you play. It really never bothered me in games that I couldn't max out my skills, I would rather have more choices then I can actually use then too few.

Chameleon
01-22-2010, 03:24 PM
I think I hate pretty much every idea you have posted so far :D

Anyways, It's not about forcing you down a path, it's about specialization which promotes unique builds and replayability.

Borderlands has a basic skill pan system and it is an utterly boring and shallow skill system.

Titan Quest has what's probably the deepest and most customizable skill system in the genre, I really hope they don't change it...rather just make improvements and expand it.

I agree.

Lol Scryer has just about the opposite view on everything I consider makes a fun game. :D

I think its good, it would be boring if we all though the same way. :)