Random or handmade world?

[zyklop]

What kind of world building system is used for Grim Dawn? Will you build up the whole world with an editor from hand like it was done with TQ or will there be a random building system using "bricks" like Diablo?

[Renevent]

I think the hand made world in TQ was awesome. There's quite a few places that really inspire awe. With that said, I think what Diablo 3 is doing sounds really nice...which is hand crafted over world areas mixed with random dungeons.

[MadWasp]

Beautiful handmade outdoor areas are cool. Powerful visual produce good feelin'.

[Alek]

They are working on randomly generating the dungeons, however, the tools they would use were utilized too late, and so the matter is in question.

They did promise some random variations in the above-ground-levels, but nothing major as far as I know.

[The Old Farmer]

All random gets old fast unless you have a huge selection, I am thinking of Hell gate London which was random but after a while everything started to look the same. A combination is a good idea if it can be worked out, or a all hand made like TQ.

[Mines51]

Hand made layouts are usually better IMO, more thought out and usually more appealing to the eye. If you randomize some of the random pieces could get pretty repetitive.

[yerkyerk]

Well, it's really not known yet. I think they're trying to see if they can implement some sort of randomization (perhaps only for dungeons?), but don't know how that'll work out yet.

So, just wait for an update..

[heron]

It would be great if they can hand craft the overworld and underworld.
The underworld would be as big as the overworld. All connected.

2 maps, one for the over world and one for the underworld.
day and night cycles, werewolf are stronger at nightfall and weather system!
rain, snow, fog, etc.

kinda like sacred2.
but the lack of story in sacred 2 made the world .. meaningless.

[TheRani]

In TQ there were a lot of tiny caves and dungeons that didn't have much of interest in them. Maybe a few critters and a primitive or ornate chest or pile o' bones. Waste of space. If those had been randomly generated dungeons containing a randomly generated mini-boss and some decent treasure, that would have been a lot more fun. Maybe even a few random quests in each town that point to such places would be nice. In short, maybe a combination of set-in-stone areas and quests, and randomly generated areas and quests would be nice. If they set up the areas in such a way that the set-in-stone areas and randomly generated areas are pieces that can fit together like a puzzle, it'd be spiffy. I mean like this:

If Town X has 4 areas branching off of it, areas A & B might contain quests and locations pertaining to the actual story, and areas C & D might be randomly generated dungeons or areas with random quests. Doesn't have to be crappy randomly generated quests like, "ZOMG! Please kill Painjuggler the Giant Spider and bring back my Silver Axe!" They could be awesome quests randomly picked from a list of awesome quests. More like Darkstone random quests, and less like Torchlight random quests.

[Jerich]

I think overworld areas should primarily be hand crafted and dungeons should be random as long as the random generator is well done. Diablo 2 had good randomization for its time, other games (like Everquest in LDON) have failed. Creating good randomized chunks is fairly challenging.

- Jerich

[k4llu5]

I would rather have a static world if it had more paths to go through instead of the lone road. The destination would be still the same of course, but it would break up the monotony. This was my biggest gripe about TQ. Randomization doesn't leave me with a lasting impression of the game world. It's nice when mobs and chests are randomized as this creates a sense of tension and surprise when you don't know whats around the corner.

[zyklop]

The Diablo3 concept of handmade key-locations and randomly generated dungeons seems to be a good mix between beautiful sceneries and always new generated dungeon challenges. I had the chance to play D3 in Cologne last august as press member and it took only a few minutes to beam me back 10 years earlier. The gameplay "flows", the same happened 3 years ago with Titan Quest. So my personal wish is, that Grim Dawn will get the best from both worlds - nice locations, remarkeble npc´s, challenging quests and randomized dungeons for a high replay-factor.

[Skorpion_King]

And what about more than one handmade map? I would prefer random maps, specially in order to play the game with a lot of characters one time and another, but reading the problems you are explaining... maybe this idea were easier.

So, maybe (i don´t know) one solution could be not having only one map for all characters, but it would be nice to have for example 4 maps for 4 characters (and 4 maps for 1 character anyway, so 16 combinations to play with).. so when you start the game with a new character a different map will be choosen. I am not sure but i think i have read somewhere that in Torchlight there is not real randomization, something like this is the way maps are generated.

Other suggestion could be having pieces of handmade maps that could be moved in the global map (randomly or previously defined).

Just some ideas Crate people could try, i don´t know the viability of them.

[LeStryfe79]

The problem with Torchlight randomization is that nothing ever felt new. It was more like "oh here is this area again", instead of "wow, this looks different". Oh well, at least they tried. Random interactive placeables should not be tied to certain architectures, but random ones instead. I know what I just said made NO sense, lol!

Diablo3 will probably be the first game that actually gets this part right...Unfortunately :(

[MadWasp]

Handmade outdoor world gives beautiful visual aesthetic look.

I bet for absolutelly handmade. Maybe caves do a little random... but a handmade cave look better too.

[Starkrun]

For what its worth, a static game will fade into oblivion... but a dynamic landscape (even if there just huge twisting tiles) will last much longer... Ive played out Dungeon Siege and Titans Quest... i know the spawns and world like the back of my hand... I would be very surprised if i ever go back.

With Titans Quest it was fun, a lot of fun, but I've beaten in somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 times and im done. Thats 21 times I ran the world! With the Masteries fan-patch integration coming that's going to warrant a new play though.

But a Dynamic world, EG: Din's Curse, Diablo 2, will last forever. I am still playing Diablo 2, in fact i have a team game going that just hit the 5 hour mark.

Static world with sprawling dungeons (built in waypoints) would work, frustration and similarity is not a good combination for any game. If there is a static world then at least have dynamic actors in that level so im not always looking at the same broken caravan or group of trees, or i know that a monster spawn in ahead of the 2nd pond. Dynamic placement in the static world area could keep the game fresh and exciting and worth many many playthoughs.

As another example Hellgate was beautifully done, and with the new fan patch out now its quite playable. The editors make it moddable and highly fun and addictive again. Knowing there is a new game every time i make a new playermakes me a happy camper. There are major areas in the game that are static but getting there is half the fun, and atleast there are still dynamic MOB placement in the static areas keeping it fresh.

Basically my excitement meter is like at 30% for Diablo 3 knowing its mainly static with "Random Quests" and a few Random Dungeons... i could really care less at this point. If they released an editor that would be different, with an editor that could extend the games life by double with a good community. But no editor and your stuck with patches every year or so... whoopee a new ARPG that looks like WOW and has a dynamic quest system and the same world scape every single play though. If there dungeons are small D3 will get very old very fast.

Torchlights randomization was based of handcrafted areas, they made the entire level and then created tiles that could be interchanged by hand and set a random chance % on them, nothing like how isometric dynamic games were, and because of the world detail they were not able to used to dungeon setup like FATE even used to make a truly dynamic world. But it worked, im still happy with it even with limited randomization. And ive already made a good 40 tiles to inject into each tile theme, i have another weeks work or so to really get this game "random" :) gotta love the ability to make your own tiles and inject them into the game!

[medierra]

In TQ there were a lot of tiny caves and dungeons that didn't have much of interest in them. Maybe a few critters and a primitive or ornate chest or pile o' bones. Waste of space. If those had been randomly generated dungeons containing a randomly generated mini-boss and some decent treasure, that would have been a lot more fun. Maybe even a few random quests in each town that point to such places would be nice. In short, maybe a combination of set-in-stone areas and quests, and randomly generated areas and quests would be nice.

This pretty much sums up how we felt about TQ side-dungeons and what we're trying to do with undergrounds in GD. We don't have this technology in place yet, so I don't want to post anything official about it until we're sure it's going to happen.

The above ground level layouts will be static but we're making them more open, so there isn't always just one linear path and we're randomizing some of the important points within them like quest objectives. Basically instead of following a narrow corridor you'll be going through a series of bubbles of varying size. It isn't the ultimate system that we'd create if we had unlimited money but we think it will be a big improvement over TQ in terms of replayability.

[Starkrun]

The above ground level layouts will be static but we're making them more open, so there isn't always just one linear path and we're randomizing some of the important points within them like quest objectives. Basically instead of following a narrow corridor you'll be going through a series of bubbles of varying size. It isn't the ultimate system that we'd create if we had unlimited money but we think it will be a big improvement over TQ in terms of replayability.

Thats what I'm talking about... remove the corridors, add random elements, make the static seem fresh with every play though. I love this idea, and I can't wait to hear about your "cave tech" once you can speak more about it.

[starkaas]

An idea I read earlier was having the areas expand as you change in difficulty ie normal to epic more dungeons, outdoor areas, quests, then epic to legendary again even more areas, dungeons, outdoor areas, quests. This would save on figuring out a good random area generating system and allow for some really good craft areas...

[Fortuitous]

An idea I read earlier was having the areas expand as you change in difficulty ie normal to epic more dungeons, outdoor areas, quests, then epic to legendary again even more areas, dungeons, outdoor areas, quests. This would save on figuring out a good random area generating system and allow for some really good craft areas...

Great minds think alike :p

Well maybe just about everyone thinks alike, we just like to think we are unique by ignoring comments that sound to similar to our own :D

Hand crafted maps is significantly superior to randomly generated ones...after all the goal is exactly the same, it's just the tiles that change to get there (take Diablo 2 for example).

[mamba]

Hand crafted maps. I played TQ way more than I played D2 which I played way more than Torchlight or HG:L.

What made me stay with TQ is the beautiful graphics and landscape combined with the large variety of builds. I had seen the landscapes before, but they were still nice (not boring) and I was more interested in my char progression and skills anyway. That is where the variation was to me.

In all randomized games I played so far, the landscape was either boring, repetetive or just not very random (or all of the above).
In HGL and TL it all felt the same, which is even worse than being static (but interesting). D2 so far did the random part best, but even that level of randomization is of no interest for me as it is still the entirely same sequence of areas / locations / quests (you know there is a jungle coming with pygmy zombies, you know what you will have to do there, you just do not know whether you will have to go left or right, but since you explore the entire thing anyway you also know it does not really matter).

A level of randomization by which the randomization would make the game fun to replay has never been accomplished for me, it always was either about the chars or a one-time walkthrough, regardless of whether the world was random or static.

An idea I read earlier was having the areas expand as you change in difficulty ie normal to epic more dungeons, outdoor areas, quests, then epic to legendary again even more areas, dungeons, outdoor areas, quests. This would save on figuring out a good random area generating system and allow for some really good craft areas...

This I like, TQ had this to a very limited degree with the additional bosses. That certainly is worth expanding on.

[Bleh]

I would also go for the handcrafted maps and if they could implement the random caves/underground zones it would even be better.

Maybe another aspect which could improve the world is having the villages change in appearance once you have done some quest. This ofcourse would only be useful if you have to visit hubs more often, which sadly wasn't really the case in TQ.

For example if you have done some quest maybe more villagers will leave there houses walking around through the village because the environment has become more "save". Which in turn could also unlock some more quest.

Or lifting a curse on a village making it look different than before.

[Starkrun]

Medierra said a month or so ago they were unsure as of yet on how the world might be. They alluded to static world and random dungeons but never set anything in stone.

I do remember something about random encounters in the world and possible random quests. Search is failing me for source.

[harlequ1n]

I might be in the minority here but I truly belive that TL's randomised dungeons look pretty impressive and beautiful. Yet there is another flaw (in my humble opinion) and that is linearity. Exploration was one of the key factors that made D2 so enjoyable.

[deimos]

It's all such a strong matter of personal taste, D2 dungeons, especially the Jail section, killed my enjoyment of randomization a long ago. Like wandering around blindfolded because everything looked the same.

For some reason Titan Quest's worlds never cease to bore me even to this day. It could use even more randomization regarding hero monsters and other random spawns, but the maps are fine.

[Starkrun]

From all the screen shots its looking to be TQ based. there is no way to use the DOP effects without a pre-made worldscape... we've yet to see dungeon designs so there is no way to tell if there static or random... I'm praying they are random and deep.

Combining TQ style of gameplay with randomization to remove the tedium of play would make me very happy. I rarely make it to the orient in TQ anymore before I'm bored of playing the game.

[deimos]

Speaking of dungeons i'd like a lot of surprises in dungeons too, be it randomization or traps or whatever. That's probably already been discussed though.

But every game gets old even with random maps, and once you collect everything TQ has to offer there will be nothing to get from the game gear-wise. Once you've taken 90% of the possible character combos through the game on all three difficulties, the remaining few are all the much harder to even start with.

Well i'm speaking for myself there, i just replay the most fun toons these days. :)

[ASYLUM101]

Randomization is just a trick to fool your mind into thinking it's extending the gameplay, when it's actually just pissing you off and making you wander around in circles for hours.

[officerdonnz]

Hand crafted maps as I've always lothed random maps and why I've never played Dablo or Dablo 2 and never will, that and they have the really annoying mechanic of degrading weapons and armour, something else that'll turn me off a game real quick.

[Furycat]

Generally random maps and the like only work in games that are specifically intended to...and these days, not that well.

The problem with them is that it works basically by making lots of rooms and tiles and then using a very simple fuzzy logic program to assemble them on the fly. The problem with this is that while it is nice and simple to make tons of these for 2d games, it takes a great deal of work to do it well for 3D.

At worst, it is horribly samey after a while, since you will see the same 'rooms' over again ad naseum. It also screws things like pacing and exploration in the ear.

If you want random stuff, lots of fun can be had by the Crate crew with creautre and their 'proxy trigger' encounters, triggering different events or creature spawns to keep players on their toes.

I'd personally rather see a beautifully sculpted semi-linear game with a bit of room for exploring than a randomized turd like Hellgate or a sandboxy, rubberbanded snoozefest like Sacred or Oblivion.

[ZZSmufa]

As many have said before, I too would prefer a handcrafted and well made world, with maybe some randomized smallish dungeons now and then. If I hadn't played TQ before, then I'd probably say randomized all the way. However, if I compare my levels of frustration when playing the same areas multiple times in TQ, to those when playing randomized areas in D2 (especially Act 3, oh joy), I'd say TQ's approach was clearly superior.

It would be interesting if there were some Infinite Dungeon, like in ADOM and Torchlight. It'd be even more interesting if you couldn't portal out of there, as an ultimate challenge. Just take a level 1 hardcore toon and get going, trying to get as far in as possible, each level getting progressively harder. Though maybe something like this could be added through a mod or in an expansion.

[eisprinzessin]

Apart from medierra's reply in this thread (http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5206) he previously confirmed:
I think any above-ground randomization approach we take will be a hybrid system. We probably can't and I don't think want to have completely randomized above-ground. Custom crafted beautiful outdoor environments are something that I think people have come to expect from us. We have some ideas for adding more randomization to the outdoor environments without sacrificing that quality though. At the very least, even if we cannot randomize the terrain or layout at all, I think we can vary the location of quest objectives, monster camps, chests, and such, much more than we did on TQ. That way even if you recognize the terrain, you still have to explore the areas to find the points of interest. We may be able to go beyond this but we won't know for sure until we get further along in development.

I think there is a good chance we'll be able to add more significant randomization to undergrounds. This isn't implemented yet though, so I can't promise it will happen but it is something we're working on.
However, we are planning to make levels less linear by designing them more as a series of boxes instead of linear paths. When I say "box" I mean that they will be more voluminous areas, not that they will be actual squares. So you'll enter these "boxes" and then begin exploring a more open area looking for the entrance to the next box area.

I am doubtful that we will actually be able to randomize the exits of most outdoor levels since our goal is to create levels that fit together to represent areas on a world-map. However, there are times when you will be traveling from one region to another through undergrounds or "rift gates". We may be able to randomize where these entrances appear in the levels. We haven't tested this yet though.
This is from a rather old thread, which has not been updated since end of January. Might be of interest to "newer" members, who did not study old threads with unspecific titles.

[Ergonpandilus]

Gothic vs. Elder Scrolls.

Handcrafted for me all the way. I'd actually even rather have some static loot from some bossmonster too.

[deimos]

Handcrafted world is fine but static loot? No way. :p Static items work to a degree in games like the Gothics where you must work hard to get armor from your faction. And not only did you have to beat a pack of tough undead critters for the Dragonsomething sword in G2, to build enough strength to use it you also needed all the bonuses and levels you could possibly get. Meaning questwork and thorough exploration (=experience) is required to reap the rewards.

Of course a cheap ass mage could get his hands on that blade really early... ;)

In aRPGs, luck and patience is what should be required to get good loot :) As soon as you're strong enough to tackle on a worthwhile farming target, it always eventually pays off to stick around for a while. Of course the downside is that not everybody likes farming.

[MageMaster]

as for mapping styles-

I like hybrid mapping that way you learn where major things are but have a different path to getting there. Cities, Dungeons etc are all the same entrance location, but the road is different. What would be interesting is seasonal change, summer, winter etc, things green go brown and vice versa. Sometimes I miss not having a type of region, mountains/snow or desert/sand in some games.

as for farming-
Its nice when things respawn after some time period, helps with the xp gain, especially when you travel everywhere on foot. Items, Items, Item. What packrat like me don't like items, oh did I say Items.

...Random Thoughts...
MageMaster

[shawnmck]

I myself don't really much care for randomized levles, as I have never seen it done or implimented very well (& I've played a lot of them). Like a previous poster mentioned, all it does is fool your brain that your seeing something different, but in reality you are not. I never understand why some people prefer a randomly generated layout over a static one. All that is changing in a random generated area is the layout. You might go in a different direction, but all the set pieces look exactly the same. Games like Diablo 2, Hellgate:London, & etc all had the exact same look to them with the exact same trees, rocks, buildings, etc. And all the levels were flat. Even in Torchlight everything is flat & I get tired of seeing the exact same environemtal set pieces (trees, boulders, coulumns, etc) over & over again. At least in Titan Quest there were a much diverse selection of trees, buildings, boulders, stalagtites, and so forth that looked beautiful. And when you went up a hill or down a hill it actually looked like you were going up/down a mountan, and were not on some ever flat area.

I am sick of the monotony and limited set of a randomly generated map. I would much rather have a huge & diverse area that is static than a random generated map that has carbon copied set designs (trees, rocks, pillars, etc that all look exactly the same) that just changes the direction you travel, nothing more. To me that is much more boring.

^Just my 2 cents.

[Cliftor]

For what its worth, if they're still putting their finger to the wind, my preferences lie on the side of randomization.

Like Starkrun said, truly static worlds lose their luster as they get played out... TQ was a beautiful game, but each playthrough saw us repeating each long chapter and each sight 3 times, and that's just for one character. By the end of my FIRST character I knew the gameworld "like the back of my hand."

The more they do to dynamicise the overworld, the better imo. Obviously there are limits and no disciplined artist will try to go beyond them lest they tempt fate, but I hope multiple playthroughs of Grim Dawn hold more surprises than TQ did.

...and if they manage to squeeze in truly random twisty-turny dungeons, even better imo!

Also, it might help to abandon the "play the game three times with one character" design of TQ and just have single-quest difficulty levels imo. I prefer shorter main quests with higher replayability.

[zac503]

Agreed 100% Titan Quest was more beautiful all around, but after 1 play through it lost a lot of the magic for me. Diablo II however still has the excitement of not knowing what's around the next corner.

[Spoon of Doom]

I myself don't really much care for randomized levles, as I have never seen it done or implimented very well (& I've played a lot of them). Like a previous poster mentioned, all it does is fool your brain that your seeing something different, but in reality you are not. I never understand why some people prefer a randomly generated layout over a static one. All that is changing in a random generated area is the layout. You might go in a different direction, but all the set pieces look exactly the same. Games like Diablo 2, Hellgate:London, & etc all had the exact same look to them with the exact same trees, rocks, buildings, etc. And all the levels were flat. Even in Torchlight everything is flat & I get tired of seeing the exact same environemtal set pieces (trees, boulders, coulumns, etc) over & over again. At least in Titan Quest there were a much diverse selection of trees, buildings, boulders, stalagtites, and so forth that looked beautiful. And when you went up a hill or down a hill it actually looked like you were going up/down a mountan, and were not on some ever flat area.

I am sick of the monotony and limited set of a randomly generated map. I would much rather have a huge & diverse area that is static than a random generated map that has carbon copied set designs (trees, rocks, pillars, etc that all look exactly the same) that just changes the direction you travel, nothing more. To me that is much more boring.

^Just my 2 cents.
Signed. Couldn't have said it better.

[Shinrou]

I myself don't really much care for randomized levles, as I have never seen it done or implimented very well (& I've played a lot of them). Like a previous poster mentioned, all it does is fool your brain that your seeing something different, but in reality you are not. I never understand why some people prefer a randomly generated layout over a static one. All that is changing in a random generated area is the layout. You might go in a different direction, but all the set pieces look exactly the same. Games like Diablo 2, Hellgate:London, & etc all had the exact same look to them with the exact same trees, rocks, buildings, etc. And all the levels were flat. Even in Torchlight everything is flat & I get tired of seeing the exact same environemtal set pieces (trees, boulders, coulumns, etc) over & over again. At least in Titan Quest there were a much diverse selection of trees, buildings, boulders, stalagtites, and so forth that looked beautiful. And when you went up a hill or down a hill it actually looked like you were going up/down a mountan, and were not on some ever flat area.

I am sick of the monotony and limited set of a randomly generated map. I would much rather have a huge & diverse area that is static than a random generated map that has carbon copied set designs (trees, rocks, pillars, etc that all look exactly the same) that just changes the direction you travel, nothing more. To me that is much more boring.

^Just my 2 cents.

+1 to this one as well. I also get a feeling the fully randomized levels are actually in a way more repetitive since they usually consist very few set-pieces to hold them together. So you are running multiple long floors that are "randomized", but in reality, you are running the same thing all over again all the time.

Only randomization that could work IMO, is the one that randomizes some ground-level stuff that isn't really altering the world that much at all, like some set-piece placements ie. tents, huge ass chest locations and such.

[KPEX]

If your having hand crafted i would suggest doing what fate/torchlight series have.

Randomly generated dungeon scrolls:
buy a scroll from a shop or loot off a monster and be able to teleport into another dimension or something like that.

[jonny_cool]

I think that the use of diablo 3 system of handmade + randomness is the way to go. Outside world should be handmade with random events and the dungeons should be random. I played TQ and soon got bored with everything being the same on every difficulty.

[Ironbread]

I'm a huge fan of randomised levels (although TQ was a beatiful map to play the first couple of times), and I always wonder why more companies don't do them.

Then Torchlight came out and I couldn't stand it. The maps are horrendous. Why???

I originally fell in love with randomised maps because of XCOM and the original Civilization. Both did GREAT map randomisation (plus, fully destructible terrain in XCOM!). Even though the XCOM maps were built from pre-generated tiles and there weren't that many of them, the important thing was that the gameplay extended across more than one tile at a time. There's a great network effect with tile combinations where fighting from an orchard into a cabbage field is completely different from fighting into farm outbuildings, and you really want to storm the barn and put snipers on the roof to cover the surrounding tiles.

Torchlight on the other hand, had tiles which were big enough to contain several minutes gameplay in their entirity, so when you enter one you know you're going to see the same spawns and levers as last time, and there's no variety even though you don't know what the next tile down the road will be. Also, the monster behaviour wasn't varied enough and four levels of the same tileset in a row was too much. I really wanted to like Torchlight, but it ended up being even more click click loot than diablo, which is saying something.

Speaking of Diablo, although a lot of the random generation was pretty meaningless which-way-does-the-corridor-bend stuff, play still managed to cross several tiles which kept it fresher. If you had to retreat you'd come across some slightly novel arrangement of obstacles and corners which you could work with tactically. This was more apparent in the actual dungeony bits than, say, the jungle river which was pretty monotonous, but it was enough to make a difference and keep the tactics fresh for longer.

[Furycat]

Handcrafted world generally beats a random one in terms of quality, random beats handcrafted in terms of replayability.

However with the excellent focus on the endgame seemingly being added - I'd love to see a high quality handcrafted world added rather than a paper thin roguelike Hellgate London mechanism.

[hooby]

I don't see where the "or" comes from?

My choice is:
Random world made from large, high-quality, handcrafted tiles!

[TECHNOmancer]

I don't see where the "or" comes from?

My choice is:
Random world made from large, high-quality, handcrafted tiles!

I hereby dub you the Dismantler of False Binary Choices!

After scanning the thread in its entirety, the consensus appears to be that the quality of a handmade map is evident and desirable, that a purely randomized map is unpredictable but bland, and that randomizing handmade tiles is the hybrid of the two. I suppose that I can now dub myself Captain Obvious.

Anyway, I prefer a handmade world, hopefully one that offers more intricacy than a pipeline -- I recall my recent comments about Final Fantasy XIII -- because the sheer craft involved in it is what impresses me and allows me to suspend disbelief. It would be fine if there are randomized elements, however I would prefer if they don't fundamentally alter the geography of a given zone. In that case, the game world is less believable as a world because the purely technical achievements of the programmers begin to demand my attention.

Allow me to illustrate: I drive from my home to an office building every week as a matter of routine. With rare exception, I travel along the same route. While this has assuredly become a mundane exercise, there is no immediate reason to assume that the regional geography will change unless a natural disaster occurs. Similarly, if a game world is to be believed, it must still emulate some real-world conventions. Except in cases of significant plot developments triggered events, I expect the same predictability and/or behavior of in-game geography.

Second, while I could travel a different path if I seek novelty, even it would become mundane once I adjusted adjusted to the new routine. Unless a game world is constructed of a vast number of randomly selected tiles, a player ultimately reaches a point where all of the sights have been seen and have become at least passingly familiar to him. Ultimately, the time spent to create all of the tiles, as well as to develop the process by which they are randomized, produces a decreasing return.

Last, my choice of which roads I take in order to reach the office is a judgment based on efficiency. I seek the simplest and fastest way to get to the office, not the one that takes me miles out of the way, because I prefer to maximize the time that I spend with my family and minimize the time devoted to commuting. Players have the same expectations of games – maximize the interactive experience and minimize inefficient travel across dead expanses of a map.

I apologize if I’m too cerebral when analyzing and answering some of these questions but I assume that many of you are my peers, both intellectually and chronologically, and that you’re seeking just as much enjoyment of your entertainment media as I am. I also assume that you’ve been gaming for decades, and so expect a deeper experience when playing today’s games than what was available when Pong and Frogger were brought to market. Finally, I greatly enjoy how constructive and interactive this forum has been. I wouldn’t invest this much time in contributing to the forum – and hopefully to Grim Dawn – if I didn’t believe that we’re all seeking the ongoing improvement of this medium and this game in particular.

TECHNOmancer

[Srikandi]

Allow me to illustrate: I drive from my home to an office building every week as a matter of routine. With rare exception, I travel along the same route. While this has assuredly become a mundane exercise, there is no immediate reason to assume that the regional geography will change unless a natural disaster occurs. Similarly, if a game world is to be believed, it must still emulate some real-world conventions. Except in cases of significant plot developments triggered events, I expect the same predictability and/or behavior of in-game geography.

All this argues for is the idea that the terrain shouldn't change during a single game in progress.

In every RPG or ARPG I've played, the character is traversing terrain which is new to the character. The events of Diablo II don't unfold along the trajectory of the hero's commute to work ;) So the terrain is, in fact, unexpected... in the context of the gameworld... for the character. That doesn't violate expectations about the way space works. And randomization helps the PLAYER to share their character's sense of exploration and surprise, even after the first time through.

Actually, one of the evolutionary differences between Rogue and Nethack was that Rogue didn't remember the layout of any level but the current one... so going back upstairs would generate a new level. In Nethack, levels you'd traversed were persistent. But NEW levels were random.

In fact, I think people who complain about random dungeons are really complaining about tiles... not randomization. Note that while Daggerfall had random dungeons, Morrowind and Oblivion (and Fallout III) had static dungeons... which still felt repetitive, because they were made from tilesets. The repetitiveness was a feature of the tileset, it didn't come from randomization at all. I have the same impression about the dungeons of Sacred and TQ: they were static but felt repetitive, because they were constructed from limited tilesets.

But it is technically possible, these days, to produce random maps procedurally without using tiles. You grow your caves or mountains or whatever organically. That's the approach that Spore takes in generating planets, but perhaps a better example is the massively popular Minecraft, which does the same thing but at a lower resolution and yet, somehow, vastly more successfully ;) If you've ever explored a Minecraft cave, you know the thrill from having NO idea what the topography is going to present you with next. You don't know if you're in a tiny cul-de-sac or a massive cave system that leads to the bottom of the world, or what you might find in the way of unusual rock formations or lava falls or underground rivers or rare minerals. It's genuinely thrilling every time.

Not within the budget for Grim Dawn, I'm sure, but IMO procedural generation is the holy grail, and is the development that will ultimately silence the critics of randomness ;)

Anyway, I necroed this thread to cast my vote with the randomness people. With, obviously, the caveat that it needs to be well-done randomness, just like static terrain has to be well-done to be interesting.

[Haaznahnuf]

I will necro it again as nobody (but one I don't remember, sorry) mentioned the Warp.

If Warp means Chaos, some of the Medierra's bubbles could be "chaotic", as in "randomized". Even outdoors bubbles (if lore-compatible).

[eisprinzessin]

If you mean by outdoor bubbles off world, then see Off World Teleporters.

[Mind Dragon]

I loved the medium to large underground areas. It was the best place for skeletons and was a nice place to find some loot.

[Haaznahnuf]

Thanks for the link.

I was more thinking about in-world contaminated and twisted areas, but it may be beyond lore. Localized bubbles and exits, random content and scenery inside, at least in a certain extent.

I hope that some of the off-world maps will be hand-made, like the beautiful hells in TQ:IT .

[yerkyerk]

I've been playing TQ:IT again, coincidentally, I also agreed to play through D2 with a friend again. I figured out what bothers me the most; it's not randomization or no randomization. I don't care too much for randomization. It could add a nice touch if done well though.

However, what bothers me is giving the players huge areas, than force them to go through it all, whereas there are other areas you can freely skip. In TQ, you can skip a bunch of areas. You don't have to finish every cave or every alternative path, heck, you can even skip a lot of stuff on one path if it's in the open fields. However, there are some areas in TQ where you are forced to go through every convolution there is and battle each and every monster. These are forced railroad tracks. In TQ, they are mostly the Knossos Maze and the Tower of Judgment. Cool as the Tower of Judgment is, going forcefully down 5 floors, without any way to skip it, is a pain.

In Diablo 2, there are several such areas; the first one that annoyed me is going through the Cloister. First you go 2-3 stores down, than you have to travel through another 3 stores. And since there's no way of knowing where the exit is, you have to go through it all. It takes up an insane amount of time and is pretty boring. Another notable area would be the Arcane Sanctuary. Like the Tower of Judgment, it's very cool visually, but it's a pain to walk through.

Bubbles would allow you to skip most of the maps - you decide the direction in which you go, instead of the game forcing you down a path (even if it does to a certain extent). At best, you have to search for a while for the exit. In that light, I'm not so sure if I'm looking forward to the random blockades. The bubbles though, would be cool, randomized or not.